Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

My father is a leaver, and a liberal in the old sense of the word - a belief that individual liberty is primary, and that government should intervene only when necessary. (Note that I am NOT talking about libertarianism, which is just neo-conservatism for white men who are stupid enough to think Ayn Rand was an intellectual.)

My father and I share many political views, even on brexit (we'd both prefer soft to hard, and both of us believe that immigration is good for the economy).

On the other hand, I am proud to declare that have nothing in common with illiberal people, on either side of the political spectrum, who prefer ideology to evidence. I despise them.

I actually quite like Clegg, but I know many consider him to be decisive.
I never fully understood why the Lib-dems were so demonised for the actions of the last co-alition government (tuition fees etc). I don't think it's realistic to expect the minority party in a coalition to be able to control policy that much. I do think that they were able to temper the Tory policies in a positive way though, and drag the government to the centre ground

Squishy, I think we are too unfamiliar with how coalitions work and the need for compromise.

Mother, unfortunately re. May my last post was what I hoped rather than what I believe.
I'm a remainer and I despise NF and his whole motley crew of muppets.

Grace: Yeah, I would like to see more coalition governments.
My happy place at the moment is an imagined parallel universe where the last GE (doesn't that seem a long time ago?) resulted in a labour/lib dem coalition. No Brexit. Farage laughed out of town.

Thank you Bored and Red for setting this up, here's my two pence worth:

I am a London based remainer. I leave in an area with high levels of immigration who voted IN very emphatically.

I am trying to accept we have to leave, but that would be easier if the process was in the hands of a competent government held to account by a competent opposition.

As we currently have neither, I think a coalition government would be a good idea.

I agree with others that TB did some good things in his 1st term office, but is entirely discredited by his involvement in the Iraq war.

Farage laughed out of town.

I wish. How he pulls off the stunt of being a man of the people is beyond me.

The problem with Clegg is that instead of going into coalition holding his nose, he made it into a massive love-in between himself and Cameron. The Lib Dems in government no longer had a distinct identity or agenda.

I do know what you mean NotDavidTennant.
For me, the fact that he comes across as deeply pragmatic (probably putting pragmatism over idealism) is one of the things I respect him for. But then I'm pretty boring, and would be the worst revolutionary ever.

("What do we want?" "Well thought out and evidence based public policy!" "When do we want it?" "as soon as is reasonably practicable!!")

My (leaver)'s opinion of Farage & Trump:

On a personal level I dislike Trump immensely - Farage I'm ambivalent about.
With Farage I sometimes agree with him, sometimes vehemently disagree.

I can however see why they've been so successful - they've tapped into an ever growing feeling and exploited it.
Anyone could have done that, but they were all too busy navel-gazing about their respective 'messages' and own agendas to recognise the glaringly obvious.

Squishy, agree with your last post.

That's what I liked about Clegg, and that's my sort of revolution too.

But how does Farage, who is so far removed from ordinary people, pull it off? I thought that as I saw him jump on a plane to cosy up to Trump. I couldn't do that - I would have to shop around for a cheap flight and save up for it, even then. Others are much worse off than I am and can never envisage themselves affording a ticket to the US.

Peregrina: If any other British MEP had spent remembrance Sunday poppy-less in a foreign billionaire's golden lift, I think the kippers would have been up in arms about it...

Apologies. My last post was not in the spirit of this thread.

My mum & dad love his 'ordinary man, just enjoys the simple things, pint & a fag' persona.

I think it's that he's got the 'common touch' in that he can speak to everyday people without appearing sneery or condescending - something that's been lacking in labour politicians for some time.
(Not all labour politicians obviously, but the ones associated with the New Labour lot).

It doesn't matter that he's rich or privileged or anything, it's how he treats people on a one-to-one level.
I read somewhere after the ref that (paraphrasing) people felt more solidarity with him every time he was mocked & verbally punched by the 'elite' (politicians).
The more sneery those people were with Farage, the more people felt those people were being sneery about them (iyswim).

Just my take on it obviously.

squishy - It may not have been in the spirit of the thread, but I absolutely agree. Those who are old enough will remember a time when Michael Foot appeared at the Cenotaph in what many thought was a donkey jacket, and criticised him for showing a lack of respect. It wasn't actually a donkey jacket, it was a good coat, but the cut gave off the wrong impression. But at least he was there. Farage is on the TV day in day out, and yet can't be bothered to show his respects to those who fought against Fascism (no surprise there, since he is one.)

Might not have been in the spirit of the thread squishy, but you're right.

X-post!

My mum & dad love his 'ordinary man, just enjoys the simple things, pint & a fag' persona.

Somehow, that is what a person who does have the good of the country at heart needs to tap into. If the chips are down, Farage won't come to bail your Mum and Dad out, of that I am 100% certain.

I didn't vote for Blair but I too felt hopeful when he was elected. However I became increasingly disillusioned about the way in which he established spin and the unholy alliance with Murdoch as a basis for power in British politics. Frankly I think he was the Father of post truth politics.

The process by which we went into Iraq without a plan was both a consequence and a precursor. I think he must have a huge ego to even contemplate moving back into politics after all that has been exposed. I marched against Iraq not so much because it was a war as because I could see the consequences of trying to impose western values on another culture and without very detailed and thoroughly thought out plan for achieving a political solution that would not result in more chaos and bloodshed . I am quite surprised by the number of people who are now claiming they were against the war, that scale of opposition certainly didn't feel evident at the time. I cannot see why Blair thinks he can overcome that.

Mango, I'm holding my nose saying this, but I do think Arron Banks and Farage have a point about certain issues in politics. However they personally and UKIP generally are not the ones to achieve that because of their personal agendas also having a dark side and whilst some their criticisms are valid its only worthwhile if you also have the solutions to go with that.

It terms of the Lib Dems I like the fact they are structured in a way that allows all members to contribute ideas for policy.

This is a good example of how 'direct democracy' might be developed. This is what UKIP would like, but fail at due to factionalism.

I also think this is where Labour falls down as its internal structure is not as easy for an individual to put across an idea and for anything to ever come from it.

The Conservatives fail due to membership numbers declining and a general lack of new blood - and therefore ideas - coming through.

On the whole I think the domination of the baby boomer generation needs to come to an end. This isn't just in representation and being the biggest voting block, but also in who is leading the direction of future policies. This applies at local and national level.

The trouble is that austerity directly stops this - anyone in the younger bracket generally has family commitments and / or is struggling with the increasing demands of work. There are few 9 - 5 type jobs out there and commuting time is ever increasing. And that also favours married couples over single people with a family. Local and parish councils are dominated by the over 60s. How many people can be home, eat dinner and be back out for a meeting by 7pm?

It does mean that career politicians are the norm and more likely to be the norm in future as its the only way you can balance demands if you are younger.

In Corbyn we have a man who is 67 and whilst he connects with many young he's still of a totally different time. May is 60 and has rejected using new media like twitter to pass on information. Neither really represent the future for that reason.

What frustrates me about Brexit, is its been lead by exactly the group that need to be stepping out of leading political decision making. Instead the group that should be stepping into that role are the ones who have been marginalised.

In this sense we have a political vacuum forming (I love my political vacuums) which is merely another avenue to be exploited due to a lack of opposition and leadership elsewhere. It does potentially leave things open for extremists because they tend to be the most politically motivated not because they are the direction that represents how what younger people as a whole would like to see.

I don't know a single leave voter who supports Farage (or especially Trump) even if they share some of their views on immigration. I do not think his man of the people act has much appeal in the North because he is so transparently up himself.

Somehow, that is what a person who does have the good of the country at heart needs to tap into.

YY.

If the chips are down, Farage won't come to bail your Mum and Dad out, of that I am 100% certain.

They're under no illusion that he will - they still like him though.

I'd just like to point out that I'm not at all trying to defend Farage/Trump etc - I'm just making observations about how I think they've successfully tapped into, and exploited, a rapidly growing discontent in their respective countries.