Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

ClaudiaApfelstrudel
And we have a new winner for 'bigot of the day'
bigot:unable or unwilling to see another's viewpoint

Btw this thread is for finding things in common not more name calling nastiness

I myself voted remain because all along I felt this was a vote of small mindedness versus open mindedness.

By contrast, I voted Leave as I find the EU project to be small minded - the white fortress of Europe.

Having said this, I do believe one good thing has come out of it, that politics has been ignited again in this country and smug, pompous politicians are now realising they are going to have to start doing something or they'll be out.

Absolutely agree with this - politicians are starting to have to actually work to keep their positions now, which is great.

By contrast, I voted Leave as I find the EU project to be small minded - the white fortress of Europe.
Ha ha ha... Which is why Theresa May thinks the majority wants British jobs for British people, and why that's proving to be a vote-winner ... Meanwhile the only party that actually says it wants an 'open, tolerant' Britain (for everyone, including Europeans) is the Lib Dems.
That's their respective statements of intents, there's no need to be ashamed about our choices, but I think they are quite clear.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this Daily Mail leader that the Leave vote is 'open'.

Other than that I agree that the only good thing is that we are all brushing up on politics, economics, and checking our facts and sources.

Of course we need to prioritize jobs for British workers, which other country should be given jobs over people who live here, I am at a loss I don't understand what you mean Fawful?

Mango I too see the EU project as insular and narrow.

What is your big, open, non-insular project, then, winter? It's not sharing opportunities with foreigners (unless where absolutely necessary), so what is it?

I feel the 'Leave' vote has given bigots wind in their sails to up their levels of bigotry

I agree absolutely.

There is a neighbourhood that I have to regularly walk through. I have reported on mn before that I have been spat at and called 'ni**er' whilst walking through with my children before the vote.

This is an area with many H.M.O's, mainly single Romanian men.

I have added an extra twenty minutes to our route now to avoid this area. The racism, hatred and aggression have gotten ten times worse. My friend was assaulted.

I think it would be a huge mistake and dangerous to assume that bigots are only from particular parts of our society.

They are everywhere and they don't need much of an excuse.

Well whats the point of responding Fawful, you seem to know me and what i am thinking .

I would ask you again though "Which is why Theresa May thinks the majority wants British jobs for British people, and why that's proving to be a vote-winner" who are British jobs supposed to be for and go too?

Yes Panicking - this is the great irony, racism comes from all quarters. We have huge no. of people here from countries that perhaps do not care about racism as much as we do in the UK which is one of the leading liberal lights in the world.
I can well imagine abuse has risen. I have witnessed first hand the people who live on my road with LD being taunted by people from EE. It was like a horrid step back in time to when I was young and some people sniggered at DB. I thought we had moved on in the UK.

This is the issue with such huge no of people, a few people you can assimilate and they soon pick on social mores of the host country but when your whole community comes, all your friends, neighbours there is zero reason to interrelate or pick up anything.

"This is the issue with such huge no of people, a few people you can assimilate and they soon pick on social mores of the host country but when your whole community comes, all your friends, neighbours there is zero reason to interrelate or pick up anything."

I disagree, I work in Cambridge and lived there until recently. It is hugely diverse (both high and low-skilled workers, from a wide range of countries and cultures). We all get along fine, there is a great community spirit. But then this is a successful city with a strong economy, which is why immigrants want to come here. I understand the reasons for resenting immigrants in cities and rural areas with struggling economies, even though getting rid of the immigrants isn't going to make things better at all (there might even be fewer jobs to go around due to lower spending, and businesses going bust due to higher labour costs).

Regarding finding something in common, I have found it difficult to talk to friends who voted Leave since the referendum. I just simply don't respect them any more (their reasons for voting Leave seem nonsense to me, just my view of course). I suppose the only thing we still have in common is wanting a better, more inclusive politics, with effective policies to reduce inequality, and increase opportunities for everyone. However, I can't see how Brexit is going to bring those about. A few of my friends who voted Leave have expressed regret, I'm afraid I don't think I can ever forgive them.

Winter currently British jobs are open to British and EEA citizens. You'd like to narrow that down to British people only, yet you call yourself the opposite open and outward-looking. You have to chose between hanging on to your jobs and describing yourself as open I'm afraid.
I'll keep my anger about your rude and bigoted comments on Eastern Europeans for tomorrow.

mismoon I find your post very sad. You said

I suppose the only thing we still have in common is wanting a better, more inclusive politics, with effective policies to reduce inequality, and increase opportunities for everyone

And then

However, I can't see how Brexit is going to bring those about. A few of my friends who voted Leave have expressed regret, I'm afraid I don't think I can ever forgive them

So you agree with your friends on what sort of society you would like to see, but because you disagree on the best way to achieve that, you "can't forgive" them and presumably are letting the referendum damage your friendships.

I think that is really sad, and I mean that in a genuine way, not at all sarcastic. I think this is such a core problem in this country now, the division between people who actually agree on more than they disagree on. And the fact that the really hard-nosed politicians on the right will exploit this to push through policies that most of us don't want, whilst the rest of us are too busy holding grudges and apportioning blame to see what is happening or unite against it.

And I say this as someone who has not been able to heal referendum damage in some of my own relationships and who has avoided discussion on the subject with others for fear of damage to friendships. I am not judging, I am just saying it is sad.

I was nodding along reading this. Can we at least agree on this

"I was somewhat troubled by the male primary school teacher on BBC Question Time this week who, in the course of defending Brexit voters like himself from accusations of racism, complained about the problem he has with the different languages spoken at his school. If that wasn’t disturbing enough, he went on to implicitly link that situation with the difficulties people have when trying to get a doctor’s appointment or treatment at the local A&E.
I understand that people have genuine concerns about immigration and I don’t think everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist – I only mentioned it above to give a context to his comments. However, I do think there is a propensity among those who voted for Brexit and Trump to seek scapegoats rather than recognise who is really responsible for the difficult situation they find themselves in.
The problems in the NHS are down to lack of proper funding, not just in hospitals and surgeries, but in the crucial area of social care.
This comes out of local council budgets, which have been cut by 30% in real terms since 2011. As these cutbacks begin to bite, hospitals find themselves under huge pressure during the winter months, when old people – the vast majority of them white and British - are much more likely to become ill or injure themselves in a fall.
Once they’ve been hospitalised, a lack of local provision of social care makes it hard for hospitals to discharge them, leading to a lack of beds. That in turn makes it difficult to treat new patients coming in to A&E that need hospital treatment. The knock-on effect sees ambulances unable to maintain their call times because they’re stuck in a queue outside A&E waiting to discharge their patients.
Of course it’s not only about beds. According to the General Medical Council, 80% of A&E doctors describe their workload as unmanageable. 7/10 junior doctors work on a rota with permanent gaps and 50% of junior doctors believe these pressures are putting patient safety at risk.
It is frankly ludicrous for the teacher to blame immigrants for this nest of problems. Wakefield, where the programme came from and where presumably he works and lives, has a population that identifies as 92.8% White British according to the 2011 census figures. The vast majority of people seeking treatment in the town will be from that group. Furthermore, the ability of the NHS to do its job would be severely undermined without the contribution of thousands of immigrants who work in our hospitals and care centres.
So whose fault is it that we have to wait to be seen at A&E or get a doctors appointment? The obvious culprits are our politicians who have promised us that we can have both low taxes and the best health service in the world. In truth, they have given tax cuts to the well-off while cutting sweetheart deals under the Private Finance Initiative, giving corporations the incentive to make profits from health care.
Nobody likes paying tax, but it is the price we pay for living in a civilised society, one where we provide enough carers to give our elderly citizens a decent quality of life. We know that if taxes are lowered, cuts to social provision and infrastructure will follow, yet many people vote for such policies, hoping against hope that we will be able to have our cake and eat it this time.
And when there aren’t enough doctors, nurses, carers or teachers, we understandably get angry. Admitting that we’re complicit in this miserable state of affairs is difficult. When Granny can’t get proper social care and is in tears because she’s frightened about the future, it’s hard to take responsibility for her situation, to recognise that you chose to vote for lower personal taxes rather than proper provision for the elderly.
It’s simpler and more comforting to blame someone else, to tell yourself that Granny is in this situation because an immigrant has taken her place in a well-regulated care home, that she has been robbed of her right to a decent quality of life. It feeds into the narrative of powerlessness and betrayal that has created Brexit and elected Donald Trump, campaigns that both relied on stirring up an animus against outsiders.
Rather than face the fact that they are complicit in the way that society is organised, voters would much rather hear that their problems are down to minorities or external powers. That’s why those who peddle such simplicities are called populists. They cleverly direct anger about the economy away from those at the top who benefit hugely from the current arrangements onto those most exploited by it down at the bottom.
And while voters are blaming someone else for their predicament, politicians exploit these sentiments to win majorities for the self same tax cutting policies that will do nothing but prolong the hardship faced by those whose elders are unable to get proper care and whose children struggle to find affordable housing. This cycle of self harm will continue to blight our society until we stop blaming others for our problems and take responsibility for creating an economy that works for everyone"

Who are you quoting ron? I agree with it.

I don't see Theresa May encouraging a 'society which works for everyone', e.g. nothing in the Autumn statement for Social care provision.

One problem is, is that social care is not 'fashionable' in the way that some medical treatments can be.

Peregrina I am going to hold off saying for now because in these days of tribal labelling a name can get in the way of appreciating exactly what the words say. I don't think any of this is controversial, but if I say who wrote it, and it is not somebody I normally would support wholeheartedly, then their "brand" might get in the way.

I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 last Sunday in which they told the stories of people who had fallen on hard times and were being temporarily housed by the Council in a homeless shelter. One was a teacher with two children, whose landlord had raised the rent beyond what she could afford and she was too ashamed to tell any of her colleagues about her situation. Another was a successful businessman who had developed PTSD as a result of being involved in a war. Both commented on how they were made to jump through endless demeaning time consuming bureaucratic hoops and were treated like scroungers. They both had felt that having contributed their taxes they had always assumed the welfare state would be there to help if they ever fell on hard times and were now shocked to find that it was trying so hard not to offer them that support, or even any respect. I was shocked yesterday to see how many homeless people are reappearing on London's streets. There was a time when cardboard city disappeared and there were sufficient resources to help all but the most hardened sleepers. On a frost night there were people sleeping rough in almost every street I walked along. That is a change in just a few months.

I saw the teacher on QT too. My first thoughts were how scary he was and how terrified I would be if I were his pupil. I suppose he didn't give a good impression of himself and may not be quite the angry racist he came across as but how are we to know? It is very difficult to read between the lines of somebody who is obviously very emotionally involved with a subject.

Fascist and racist ideologies are now energised. They are free to speak how they feel. I suppose in some cases this may be a positive thing as they make themselves into overt racists rather than covert ones.

As the saying goes, not all leavers are racists or fascists but all racists and fascists voted leave. I'd like to see this issue addressed by those advocating the leave vote as a vote for open mindedness.

Fascism by definition is not about openness, but about intolerance and un questioned obedience.

"...A primary school teacher on BBC Question Timeme who clashed with writer Laurie Penny over Leave voters being labelled racist, was then himself called racist.^
Speaking on the show, which was this week held in Wakefield,d, west Yorkshire,^

the man said:
"I’ve worked at various schools where English is genuinely not the first language on the playground, not between the children but by the parents.
^Once upon a time, people came to this country and gradually integrated and were welcomed. We’re a very welcoming nation.
But when you get a massive influx of people all coming at the same time, that’s what people have a problem with. That’s when we get concerned when we go to the doctors and we can’t get appointments, when we go down to A&E and it’s full.
Now people may turn round and say ‘oh no, no, that’s racistst_^, that’s facist, that’s not acceptable’.
But 18 million people…we knew what we were voting for, we know we want to get out and the sooner we start and trigger Article 50, the better.”
^

[Penny] said:
"I understand that it hurts to hear people say ‘that’s racist’, ‘that’s xenophobic’, but do you know what also hurts? To be a victim of racism, to be a victim of anti-immigration.
^Let me put it to you: in Wakefield here, 95% of the people of Wakefield were born in the UK, this is not a town which is experiencing a giant migration crisis.
I want to know from you sir, what it is about listening to people speak a different language in the playground that makes you uncomfortable and how you think that connects to the fact that you can’t get a doctor’s appointment because the NHSHS_ is a crisis that is nothing to do with that?"

[The teacher] said:
"There’s various different accents and languages you hear but what you do find is it fires up different parents and all of a sudden, the parents are complaining, and then children, who weren’t aware really of where different children came from, all of a sudden are becoming quite divisive because the parents are becoming divisive.
Unfortunately when people come en masse, they don’t want to integrate with everybody else because they’ve got their own little communities and that’s what’ we’re finding in the playgrounds".

Rather than finding the man 'scary' or even imagining how 'terrified' you would be if you were his pupil or indeed thinking of him as a 'scary racist' - perhaps actually read his words, and understand them.

He at no point said he was 'uncomfortable about hearing different languages or accents', which was levelled back at him.

He was wrong re the reasons for NHS places etc - as Billy Bragg rightly points out (the author of whateouldrondo's post) it is the fault of successive govts and the easy option is to blame immigrants.

However, when people instantly shut people like that teacher down with 'Scary Racist!', 'Terrified!', 'Xenophobe!' etc it does not help the situation one bit.
It is actually counterproductive to follow that path.
Billy Bragg (like him or loathe him) makes excellent points in that piece, but that message is getting lost when people leap straight to 'you're a racist/xenophobe'.
Reminiscent of the point when Gordon Brown lost the Labour core, working class vote with his "that bigoted woman" comment.

(Quoted text at the start taken from Huffpost).

Apologies for randomly underlined parts in previous post - it was a long piece of cut & pasted stuff & I'm on the app so couldn't preview.

It's not been counterproductive to follow that path for the last 60 years so why would it suddenly be counterproductive? A world war was fought to combat this kind of entitled ideology. If this man were my child's teacher and I were not white I would be seriously worried.

There is more to communication than the words a person uses. This was not a 'matter of fact' speech whatsoever, but actually a anger laden rant. He seemed to be struggling to keep the lid on his anger. For somebody who is a primary teacher that kind of aggression is utterly scary and has no place in primary schools, or society at large.

It's not been counterproductive to follow that path for the last 60 years so why would it suddenly be counterproductive? A world war was fought to combat this kind of entitled ideology. If this man were my child's teacher and I were not white I would be seriously worried.

It has been counterproductive since time immemorial to shut down and label.

He was entirely wrong with his points about lack of drs appts etc - and this misinformation has been (and still is) peddled as truth within the populist argument.

But rather than this populist misinformation being robustly countered, it is easier to shout Racist! Xenophobe! and attempt to completely shut down with no actual proper argument or debate.

What is the direct result of that?
The moderate majority seeing that they are 'not allowed' to vocalise any of their concerns or fears because they will be wilfully misinterpreted and labelled.

That's when the real racists and bastards jump in - they fill the void, they tell these people 'we're listening, we understand' and they cover their really nasty intentions with a veneer of respectability to appeal to the increasingly disenfranchised & disenchanted.

You say if this man was your child's teacher & your kids were not white, you'd be 'seriously worried'.
Was this man even talking about non-white immigrants?

As the saying goes, not all leavers are racists or fascists but all racists and fascists voted leave. I'd like to see this issue addressed by those advocating the leave vote as a vote for open mindedness

It might have been frequently stated, but that doesn't make it true. I don't believe it is true. Do you have any evidence to back the statement up Claudia?

And regardless of any factual basis - what exactly do you want addressed?
It is unclear.

Do you want us to address the fact that there are racists & fascists out there?

If so, then I say yes. Yes there are.

I do not, however, believe for a minute that over 17 million people in Britain are racists & fascists.

I believe the number of truly racist & fascist people in Britain to be quite small tbh, and I believe that most people in Britain are intolerant of racism & fascism.

I think the piece you quoted has some good points ron and I agree with much of it, but there's a lot I disagree with.

However, I do think there is a propensity among those who voted for Brexit and Trump to seek scapegoats rather than recognise who is really responsible for the difficult situation they find themselves in

I disagree with this. It may be the case for some, but many voted leave because they want the country to make its own laws and make its own decisions, almost the opposite really.

What he says about NHS and social care under-funding is quite true. I’m not sure if he is suggesting we need to import trained medical staff. Perhaps not. I certainly think we should pay for the training of the staff we need, not poach staff from other, less well off, countries.

Furthermore, the ability of the NHS to do its job would be severely undermined without the contribution of thousands of immigrants who work in our hospitals and care centres

I am still not convinced that this is true and it is certainly not sustainable. Some EE countries are losing huge numbers of their young people, presumably many of them the more dynamic ones. Is that really helping those countries? Is it really beyond our capability to train and pay sufficiently to be able to staff our own health services? I’m not convinced.

Nobody likes paying tax, but it is the price we pay for living in a civilised society, one where we provide enough carers to give our elderly citizens a decent quality of life. We know that if taxes are lowered, cuts to social provision and infrastructure will follow, yet many people vote for such policies, hoping against hope that we will be able to have our cake and eat it this time
And when there aren’t enough doctors, nurses, carers or teachers, we understandably get angry. Admitting that we’re complicit in this miserable state of affairs is difficult. When Granny can’t get proper social care and is in tears because she’s frightened about the future, it’s hard to take responsibility for her situation, to recognise that you chose to vote for lower personal taxes rather than proper provision for the elderly
It’s simpler and more comforting to blame someone else, to tell yourself that Granny is in this situation because an immigrant has taken her place in a well-regulated care home, that she has been robbed of her right to a decent quality of life

He is stereotyping that leave voters vote Tory etc, etc. They don't all by any means. I agree with his main point though – if we want decent public services we need to vote for a government who will increase taxes.

It feeds into the narrative of powerlessness and betrayal that has created Brexit and elected Donald Trump, campaigns that both relied on stirring up an animus against outsiders

So he is of the opinion that the leave vote was a protest vote? I don't believe it was, in the main. I think a vote to leave an unwieldy organisation which is too big for is us to have meaningful democratic participation in, is not a “narrative of powerlessness”, quite the opposite.

Rather than face the fact that they are complicit in the way that society is organised, voters would much rather hear that their problems are down to minorities or external powers. That’s why those who peddle such simplicities are called populists. They cleverly direct anger about the economy away from those at the top who benefit hugely from the current arrangements onto those most exploited by it down at the bottom

I’m really not sure about this. Who is he talking about that is “complicit”? There are many people who have done very badly in the last few years and have not been complicit (eg voted for the Tories –or Lib Dems, oh sorry, they are coming to save us from austerity now, must forget their part in the coalition— If people have been complicit, then his point is fine, but many have not. He seems to view the population (or just leave voters possibly) in a very mono-dimensional way.

I agree that the answer to underfunding of services is to raise taxes and increase the funding of services. But I don't agree with his assumptions as to why most people voted leave. One teacher on QT does not demonstrate the thought processes of all leave voters.

Lib Dem muttered aside crossing out fail there. I just am getting a bit fed up of people going on about how the Lib Dems are going to offer an alternative to austerity and a shift to the right. Snort, snort, it's as if the coalition never happened.

If people want to support the LDs because they are going to try to overturn the referendum result, I wish they would just be honest about it. Personally I wouldn't trust a LD politician further than I could throw one.

"It might have been frequently stated, but that doesn't make it true. I don't believe it is true. Do you have any evidence to back the statement up Claudia?"

Lots of (statically robust) evidence from the British Election Study. Anyone can download the full post-referendum data set and check for themselves.