Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

winter But apparently its OK to throw innocent UK civilians under this bus because some people need close political ties with the EU to be able to feel European.

Can you expand on this please?

If Tony Blair generally cared, he would stay well away. He must realise how toxic he is now? To the left, the right and the centre?
His re-emergence on the scene will have a centrifugal effect, which is the last thing we need.

yes but if Tony Blair had not wanted to "rub the rights nose in it" with regards to opening the flood gates from the EU< then we wouldn't be in this position at all would we. If it was all thought out, done properly with the British public and their jobs and safety at the fore front of the Blair government, there would be no resentment.

As for the far right, its terrifying but then so is the far left and we have seen their disgraceful involvement in abusing and incensing migrants to riot in Calais, ( mysteriously just after a visit from Corbyn) and Momentum flags were waved.

So lets pray they dont turn up as well, as we will have problems, they have no shame.

I think you are right RTB. The phrase 'who hurt you?' comes to mind.

London is an amazing metropolis and all the elements of cosmopolitan life that entails. It is not just a big version of St. Ives. If you just had a bigger version of a small English town, then it would not be the world city it is. I would be surprised if English people want London to lose it's cachet. The fall and decline of London for another Gibbons.

Many moderate Tories were appalled at the speeches coming out of the Tory party conference. It's just a pity that more aren't prepared to stand up and be counted.

Re the 'Northern Powerhouse - don't forget that places like Newcastle are a long way from Manchester - namely 150 miles. Relatives in the N East regard Manchester as 'down south'. Newcastle is nearer to Edinburgh at 150 miles.

I am afraid I disagree, I don't see how the schools in the front line of the mass wave of Immigration could possibly benefit, nor hospitals or maternity wards when there was already a massive MW shortage under Blair.

Ok, so here goes.
I voted Leave for a variety of reasons. I am concerned for my children's futures because of the high level of uncontrolled immigration. I want the Government that we, as a nation, elected to be able to control immigration. I would like us to have an overview of our labour market so that we knew where we needed to offer more training, perhaps more apprenticeships, and where we needed more immigration. This would and should include all aspects of employment at all levels in all sectors. I find it hard to believe that as a country we, eg, just offer apprenticeships wherever an employer wants them rather than where the country needs them. So, we have too many hairdressers and not enough bricklayers.
I am also greatly disturbed by the costs of the EU. I don't think it is necessary for them to move all the time. And I am not sure their accounts have ever been signed off fully.
I like the idea of our judges making our laws and I want us to be able to easily deport criminals.
I live in the South east but not London. I am originally from the north.
As I get older I am moving more to the right.
I am a fan of austerity because I do not want my grandchildren to be saddled with a pile of debt.
I too have lived overseas but feel British and not European. I feel as if I had European nationality imposed upon me.
I want us to be able to trade freely with all countries and to be able to negotiate those agreements ourselves.
I love Asia and South America and feel more akin to these mind sets that that of the EU. I hate EU red tape.

Mother: I have never been a fan of Tony Blair, but do concede that he did some good things. And some bad things. I think that blaming a single leader (or party, or profession) for all the countrys ills is a huge over simplification, whether that leader is Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher (not a defence of either).
However, whether its justified or not (and I think it is), he has become a toxic brand.

Incidentally I do think there is a bubble in London, aside from the political, and economic elites, but also enabling them, but I don't think it is confined to London by any means. You will find the same complacency and lack of empathy or interest for the experience of people in Hull in not just the Home Counties but the North as well, for instance in parts of Cheshire and even the Ridings of Yorkshire. Without it how could the right wing Press get away with the myths about benefit scroungers and immigrant criminals. Equally food banks have not just emerged in Hull, they are across the country.

Motherof4 - you're brave! (wrt TB)

I also felt excited in the late 90s when TB came in - personally, I didn't benefit from new labour as I was in the forces as during their years they decimated us.
But, I did appreciate what was achieved elsewhere as you mentioned in your post - right up until he threw us under the bus with allowing the mass immigration (and obvs Iraq etc).

Wrt the first Gulf War in the early 90s however, that was all about the liberation of Kuwait - it should have gone further but regime change was not what we were there for.

Twofingers, agree about TM & AR etc - I was optimistic about TM initially, now I'm not.

Cameron, I recall prior to the 2010 election, promised 3,000 more midwives. That was the last we heard of that one.

Mother: I think he would cause more division within labour (especially thrown against Corbyn and his fans) just when we really need a strong opposition. Dare I say it but Jeremy seems to be finally developing a backbone within the last couple of weeks as well...

If this were China they would be pouring millions into infrastructure development and economic plans for the cities to create mini London megaopolis's around the country. However the big cities like Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds that have expanded economically were not the source of the Brexit vote. I don't think that if you live in Sunderland or Barnsley or Boston (northish ) and voted Leave that is what people voted for either.

I have HUGE reservations about HS2 for this reason.

One of the most restrictive things about living outside London is how a lack of a transport network means people are restricted to their local communities and the radius in which they can find work is pretty tiny if you are able to drive.

HS2 will land in central Manchester which has already had huge investment in infrastructure and renovation. It has sucked things out of surrounding towns. They are unable to cope with this, and the effect generally is the wide commuter belt outside the city doesn't work or shop in the provisional towns leading to them just crumbling. People living in these towns are unable to share this because they can't afford to travel and even if they could the networks are already full to capacity and struggling to cope.

Liverpool has had another huge investment recently and I wonder if this is more what we should be doing. Peel Holdings (who as a company I have big issues with) have just spent millions upgrading a new port facility in Liverpool. It was opened by my favourite person Liam Fox.

They saw this as a real opportunity because most export and import into the country goes through the SE and then is loaded up onto either rail or road. This is NUTS. The port charges are much more expensive and the cost of transporting by rail or road greatly out weighs the additional cost of shipping containers a few hundred miles extra. It would almost certainly bring in lots of jobs to these areas - many of which are the type that are required.

Who is going to pay for this though? Well seeing as Peel Holding think its a worthwhile investment in Liverpool, there has to be a viable economic case.

Far better to look at investing in our regional port facilities, which strangely correlate fairly well with many of these areas that have faired poorly. There are of course exceptions to this; Stoke and Derby areas spring to mind with that.

In terms of Stoke, I think looking at what type of industries have down well there in the past. I wonder if Stoke has been overlooked as it was traditionally a creative arts industry rather than a more educated one. There must be an untapped talent pool of artists there if only because there have been hundreds of years of painting and pottery making. Sticking call centres in there, isn't really playing to strengths.

Yeah and we need a radical rethink about provisional transport networks. Perhaps technology is the long term solution here. If driverless cars do become the thing - and this is highly likely - the need for a driving licence becomes obsolete. People would not need to own cars either. This opens doors, to those who are disadvantaged in this respect, if the new infrastructure is properly built. Cars could effectively be mini taxi services that can go direct to people, pick up a group drop them off and then move on to the next drop. It could easily be hubbed too.

This again, makes you wonder why HS2 is being so heavily pushed. By the time its built, driverless cars should really be coming online and trains perhaps are looking like they are dated that way.

We live on a bloody island. I don't get why we are not going, how we can make the most of that rather than connecting everything via the SE.

Also see Heathrow expansion.

Mango: I was optimistic about May as well during the Tory leadership contest, but I think that was just the effect of who she running against....

Ok head above the parapet......I don't hate Tony Blair, I remember the day he was elected as a great day for our country. After those years and years and years of Tory rule, it was a breath of fresh air.

I agree with this. My feeling was that we needed a change then. There were individuals in the Tory parties who were jaded and no fresh blood and thinking was coming in.

Schools benefited, hospitals benefited, the Labour party was very successful, certainly in the first 5 years or so.

The trouble was the way they did this was to build them and keep the price down the road for a later date rather than just borrowing as a nation. Its cost us all a lot more in the long run because it was paid for via dodgy and ill thought out PFI.

I don't have a grudge against PFI across the board. I know of several which are very good - Planning for a supermarket as long as they also paid a new stadium. Planning for a new supermarket with a library as part of the process.

The trouble is, just about all the NHS ones were a fucking disgrace and a disaster waiting to happen. I happened to see one of the proposals though my job at the time and looked at the figures and went cross eyed going 'HOW does this make sense?'

I think this is where a lot of our financial problems now stem from. We are still paying for hospitals from 20 years ago and its cost us far more than if have taken a bigger loan in the first place which would now be about to be paid off in full.

Trying which aspects of the Confucian Asian mindset and the European Catholic South American mindset do you feel akin to.

It has taken years of living in and studying Asia to feel that I have stopped viewing the Asian mindset with a western perspective and actually begun to understand. However I do think a lot more of us need to get there, and a few more of our journalists need to up there game, if we are going to engage more closely with the world's second largest economy.

" for the first time in the modern era, the dominant country in the world which I think is what China will become will be not from the West and from very, very different civilizational roots.
2:09
Now, I know it's a widespread assumption in the West that as countries modernize, they also westernize. This is an illusion. It's an assumption that modernity is a product simply of competition, markets and technology. It is not. It is also shaped equally by history and culture. China is not like the West, and it will not become like the West. It will remain in very fundamental respects very different. Now the big question here is obviously, how do we make sense of China? How do we try to understand what China is? And the problem we have in the West at the moment, by and large, is that the conventional approach is that we understand it really in Western terms, using Western ideas. We can't. Now I want to offer you three building blocks for trying to understand what China is like, just as a beginning."

www.ted.com/talks/martin_jacques_understanding_the_rise_of_china/transcript?language=en

I still have deep reservations about Corbyn, mother. But realistically, they can't keep going through leadership contests. For better or worse, I want labour to work with the leader they have for the time being.
In the same way, May is not who I want running the country. But she is, so I am resigned (for the time being) to optimistically hoping that she conducts Brexit in a diplomatic, pragmatic organised way....... [leave thread to scream into the back of my hand, then spends the rest of the day rocking back and forth in a corner]

Feels a bit weird calling you mother.

Re. Tony Blair, although I believe the Labour government did a lot of good things, Blair is too divisive a character to have any real impact now. As a pro-remainer, I would like somebody to step forward into a leadership role.

I think if Farage and Trump have taught us anything, it's that political parties/movements need a charismatic figurehead in the current climate. I'm not sure that there's anyone to fill that role on the remain side at the moment. (Gary Lineker? )

Out of interest, do we all share a common ground in disliking Nigel Farage, or do some Leavers have a positive view of him? My DM is pro-leave but can't stand him.