Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

Sorry, a bit long. I'll get my coat..

Did the British Election Study ask respondents if they were a racist?

Yes, there are several questions asking if, for instance, people think that discrimination laws on the basis of ethnicity have gone too far, whether ethnic minorities have too many rights, etc.

I do not, however, believe for a minute that over 17 million people in Britain are racists & fascists.

I don't either, but I think it's time that those Leave voters who aren't started calling out Farage and his ilk. The more publicity he is allowed, the more they allow themselves to be tainted with him. One only has to look at the Government's behaviour, and their appalling conference. Happily, one or two, namely Nicky Morgan, have begun to speak out (and I never thought I would be praising her in a million years).

Most of what I see being said about the leave voters doesn't reflect the leave voters I know IRL. I certainly am not thinking 'I can never forgive you'.

In fact, a lot of people I've spoken to about it on both sides don't seem hugely interested or concerned...but conversely they felt that they had to vote as it was such a big decision and their fathers/grandfathers thought for democracy.

I said before the result, and whilst I was confident remain would win, that the referendum on such a yes or no basis was a daft idea, because it isn't a yes or no question.

I'm a remainer, but if we're going to leave, I'm on the fence as to whether a 'soft' brexit is the best option - it seems like we would have even less sovereignty and be bound by Eu laws without being part of making them...which is a much worse situation than actually being in the eu I reckon.

In short, I'm quite concerned about the way it's going.

missmoon no I don't have evidence to back it up, as far as I'm aware, and correct me if I am wrong but they don't create statistics asking

'are you a fascist and or a racist' and then
'did you vote leave'

even if they did it would require a degree of awareness of the respondent of their condition - no doubt many racists and/or fascists are unaware of their affliction.

I've yet to meet or hear about any hard-right or extreme right person who didn't vote leave so even in my own small sample it's pretty damning.

As the saying goes, not all leavers are racists or fascists but all racists and fascists voted leave.

Not true at all.

The Ronanian bigots and racists by me weren't entitled to vote.

But judging by the increased racism, aggression and violence they weren't happy with the result and would have been firmly in the remain camp.

But I suppose, as we saw after the vote, racism is only a problem if it's against white Europeans.

mismoon There is indeed a lot of data on that site and not the easiest to navigate. I'd be very surprised if it shows that every racist voted leave (but happy to be admit I'm wrong if that's what the study shows) and would be interested to see it if you could link to the relevant bit.

Claudia Hard right and extreme right is not the same as racist, in my book. I would agree that probably most on the hard right voted leave, but not that all racists did. One can be politically fairly middle of the road and still be racist. Can you be left wing and racist? I'm not sure, although the Labour Party has been called racist plenty in recent times.

I'm sure there's many a well-heeled racist that voted Remain as it suited them to do so.

Racists are not just shouty BNP types.

The most appalling racist I've ever come across was a black Trinidadian. Disgusting ingrained racism against British whites. I made allowances for it, maybe wrongly I know.

The point is though, surely, that 'racism' from a minority is largely irrelevant. It's racism from the general population that affect's people's lives.

A racist comment, in London, from a Pole against a black British person doesn't have the same impact on that person as walking down the street and getting abuse from 'normal British' people does it?

I'm not excusing racists in any way but I've experienced this crap myself and racism from minority groups is just laughable.

A racist comment, in London, from a Pole against a black British person doesn't have the same impact on that person as walking down the street and getting abuse from 'normal British' people does it?

I would imagine being abused is just the same amount of awful regardless of who the abuser happens to be.

*A racist comment, in London, from a Pole against a black British person doesn't have the same impact on that person as walking down the street and getting abuse from 'normal British' people does it?

I've experienced this crap myself and racism from minority groups is just laughable.*

Excuse me, are you serious?!

I have been spat at and screamed at while with my children. My friend has been seriously sexually and racially assaulted.

But because we are black and the perpetrators were minority white Romanian men it's 'laughable?'

If this referendum has shown me one thing it's this. Racism done to people like me is fine.

Eastern Europeans are the liberals darlings at the minute, couldn't possibly be a bad person amoung them. All the 'they are so much more dedicated and hardworking' bollocks I've seen spewed.

Call back women niggers and rape them? No problem.

Vote leave: Unforgiveable racist bigot.

They are people like all of us. Some are flawed.

Racist abuse is disgusting whoever the perpetrator is, and to say otherwise is bizarre.

This thread is about what we have in common and I am glad we all agree that immigration has been a scapegoat for government policies and I hope that we would all call the government out on it's continuing adherence to those policies.

I think we can all agree that being from a minority or having any difference does not preclude you from being racist, or indeed a misogynist. The hard right are an issue in Eastern European countries too. Farage had no problem finding equally unpleasant company in the EU parliament. Black communities are not immune either.

I have to say that I agree with Mango that we should be able to discuss issues around effectively integrating cultures. However we are a country that has many established immigrant communities already integrated into our national life, for instance, our cuisine. My ancestors came from Ireland, I grew up with people from Eastern Europe, Pakistan, India and the West Indies and my children have Polish, Indian, Sri Lankan and African friends who are second or third generation descendants of immigrants to this country . I do think that a teacher choosing to expose his views on the languages spoken in the playground on national TV in a programme that has essentially become a bear pit had a lot more to do with the way in which the governments scapegoating of immigrants and the fallout from Brexit generally has made it acceptable to express the resulting frustration with immigrants in the public eye. Wakefield has a low immigrant community compared to the rest of West Yorkshire, and it is far from just Eastern European. Polish has been spoken in the playgrounds of West Yorkshire for 70 years and Punjabi and Urdu for at least 60. Of the 7% of the Wakefield community that are not white British only just over 2% come from EU states with slightly more immigrants coming from Urdu or Punjabi speaking countries. Plenty of communities near to Wakefield have much bigger immigrant communities, in some cases over 50%, even going back fifty years. I can say from personal experience that the key to integration is to value each other's differences, otherwise people do become tribal, not for a teacher to feel entitled to join in a general free for all on the subject of immigrants that will get back to the community he teaches in and foster division not integration. I am sure his school has strategies for dealing with these issues, there is plenty of existing experience, and if he was unhappy with those strategies then he should make his views known to those responsible, that is how public service organisations work. I have many friends and family who work in professions like teaching and the Police who regard it as essential to their professionalism to stay well away from any forum, social media, the Press etc. in which their personal views may become public and known to those who they interact with.

Wrong I am sure you are right about the reason some people voted leave but I am equally sure that these are not the reasons that guided everybody's vote. I am quite sure the frustration stirred up by the scapegoating of immigrants by the government and in the media was a significant factor in the vote. It certainly was in the Leave voters I have discussed it with, who are mainly older and have not had any personal negative experiences of immigration.

Having seen some of the abuse that suffered by the Pakistani couple who ran a local shop, I can say that it was usually perpetrated by white British people. It doesn't make it acceptable whoever it is perpetrated by.

I agree that we should be calling the Government out on its policies - having now set the tone and inflamed feelings, instead of dampening them down.

I am glad to see that Farage sticking his oar in in Austria backfired.

Ron I don't think leavers are willing to agree that immigrants are scapegoats rather than the cause of ills. We live in HMOs, undercut the natives by working like slaves for cash in hands and we are not interested in assimilating.
The true facts are there, in (admittedly dry) scientific papers that anyone can access, but I don't think they've been googled sunk in.
(I'm looking at a very scientific study at the moment for instance that says that waiting times are lower as a result of immigration. It explains why and how. It is a paradox and I was bracing myself for the opposite conclusion when I started reading the paper, but it seems to be the reality.)

To go back to the thread I would absolutely agree that a lot more thought needs to go in working towards cohesion in society, and how to make communities meet. Sure Start was quite good in that respect. Classes and ethnicities were all mixing in their toddlers groups ten years ago when my DCs were little and I never got the sense of being an outcast that I'm getting now with my foreign accent. It was a non-issue back then it seemed. I wonder what it's like now.
Gordon Brown had started a levy on visas that went towards helping communities adjust to immigration (iirc) & this was scraped by Cameron (or the levy was kept, but the money raised stopped going to help communities).
Ive worked with many (mainly young) EEuropeans (from Poland, some from Slovakia, Romania & Hungary) and most of them have been generous and genuine people (by which I mean the opposite of being two-faced). All my friend in the UK happen to be Polish (apart from British DP) as a result of meeting them at work, so it personally winds me up to read untruths about Eastern Europeans by people who have probably never spoken to one.
The fact they catch up in Polish amongst themselves in the playground btw doesn't mean they are not married to a British man.

Ron I don't think leavers are willing to agree that immigrants are scapegoats rather than the cause of ills.

Ummm... yes we are.

Then what is there to sympathise with that primary school teacher who leaps from hearing Polish in the playground (which is actually just mums catching up and unrelated to how assimilated they are in the rest of their lives) and A&Es waiting times?

My post from earlier in the thread, fawful - commenting specifically on that:

^Rather than finding the man 'scary' or even imagining how 'terrified' you would be if you were his pupil or indeed thinking of him as a 'scary racist' - perhaps actually read his words, and understand them.
^
He at no point said he was 'uncomfortable about hearing different languages or accents', which was levelled back at him.^
^
He was wrong re the reasons for NHS places etc - as Billy Bragg rightly points out (the author of whateouldrondo's post) it is the fault of successive govts and the easy option is to blame immigrants.^

However, when people instantly shut people like that teacher down with 'Scary Racist!', 'Terrified!', 'Xenophobe!' etc it does not help the situation one bit.
It is actually counterproductive^^ to follow that path.
Billy Bragg (like him or loathe him) makes excellent points in that piece, but that message is getting lost when people leap straight to 'you're a racist/xenophobe'.
Reminiscent of the point when Gordon Brown lost the Labour core, working class vote with his "that bigoted woman" comment.^

(Quoted text at the start taken from Huffpost).

Apologies, the random "Quoted text at the start taken from Huffpost" at the end of my post was cut and pasted from my original post.

The post I have just pasted is all my own words.

As you find it so easy to lump all leavers together as an homogeneous mass of Borg-like minds fawful, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on:

*A racist comment, in London, from a Pole against a black British person doesn't have the same impact on that person as walking down the street and getting abuse from 'normal British' people does it?

I'm not excusing racists in any way but I've experienced this crap myself and racism from minority groups is just laughable.*

Is this a 'remainer' view, or simply the misinformed view of an individual, who happens to have voted Remain?
Do** Remainers believe that racism based on skin colour is not as bad, if it comes from Eastern Europeans?

If it is (as I believe it to be) the misinformed view of an individual who happens to have voted Remain, then I would respectfully ask that you stop lumping 'Leavers' together as one being.
We are actually a group of individuals who voted to vote to Leave the EU, that is all.

Fawful How about in this thread at least, even if you can't bring yourself to do it anywhere else, you let leavers speak for themselves?

I know mango, and I'm asking why you think it would be good of me to, like you, patronise someone who makes a leap from hearing foreign languages in a playground to the rise A&E waiting times. He didn't make a causal link with words, but one led to the other in the same sentence and I presume it's not totally random. Just because he doesn't use the word 'because' or spell out his discomfort doesn't mean I for one can't see exactly what he means. So yes he is scapegoating, and I'm not sure we stand united against that.

I would hope that what we do have in common is a recognition that being different by reason of the colour of your skin has exposed people to racism and discrimination for a very long time and on a massive scale throughout Europe and the former colonies of it's empire. I do think it is entirely wrong to minimise that legacy in assessing the impact of racism towards people with different coloured skin by white people wherever they come from today.

However I don't think that the fact that some Eastern Europeans are racist excuses the license to express racism towards people simply because they speak another language in public either. There is a significantly different issue that has emerged since the government and media began to focus attention on immigration as a "problem" and especially since the Brexit vote.

It is all very well to accuse one side or the other of being too quick to jump to the rhetoric but the fact is that there is a whole lexicon of new rhetoric that has divided people into "Brexiteers" who get labelled racist, uneducated and older and "Remoaners" who are "liberal elites" and "traitors". I actually think the latter is particularly insidious because it is freely used in the right wing press, the Daily Mail is on fire with it today . Frankly if 48% of the population are believed to be traitors, and that includes for instance, the legal minds that have risen to the top of their profession, then I don't understand why anybody thinks Brexit can possibly hold a glorious future for us, a civil war seems a more likely proposition.