Things in Common

[RedToothBrush]

This has been suggested by BoredofBrexit, to try and see if there is common ground between Leavers and Remainers.

I like the idea, but I do worry that this might not work out as planned. I just ask everyone to post in the spirit of this rather than critiquing others too much, though I appreciate this might be a big ask. Better to say what you AGREE with rather than point out things you disagree with.

The Hope Not Hate campaign, which was set up in 2004 in response to provide a positive antidote to the politics of hate as the BNP was winning substantial votes and local councillors in the North of England and they regarded traditional anti-racism and anti-fascism tactics as failing.

They have this blog post from earlier this month:
www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/nick/the-far-right-are-on-the-ascendency-but-they-do-not-own-the-future-5058
The far right is on the ascendency but it does not own the future

Part of it reads:
We are also likely to see growing support for far-right parties across Europe and with forthcoming elections in Austria, France, Germany, Denmark and the Netherlands – to list just a few – we could also see far-right parties/politicians increase their representation and even enter government.

More worryingly, has been the adoption of far-right ideas into the political mainstream, so that even if the parties fail to win power their ideas will.

We can shut ourselves away and get depressed. We can huddle together in our little progressive circles and social media echo chambers and moan about why people can't see the truth – or we can get organised and do something about it. And that is what I intend to do.

But the very fact that far-right ideas are appealing and gaining traction should make us rethink our own approach. The fact that they are winning and we are not should make us accept that we are doing something wrong. Our ideas and tactics are clearly not resonating.

We must reassess how we do politics. We need to figure out how we can have a modern economic system that doesn't throw whole communities on the scrap heap. But the Left also needs to rethink how it engages with white working class communities so as to express genuine empathy and understanding. We need to understand the need of communities to their tradition and culture, and not appear to be meddling outsiders sneering and insulting their way of life.

Opposition to immigration and multiculturalism might be the prism through which people are increasing expressing their discontent, but accepting that should not get us to ignore genuine grievances and anxieties. We cannot condemn everyone who raises concerns about immigration as a racist. Some clearly are, but others have genuine concerns.

Our Fear and HOPE report shows that the numbers of people with strident anti-immigrant views are declining. Many more though have concerns about the pace of change and the pressures on public services and society's infrastructure. Whether we agree with these concerns or not, it is vital we don't dismiss them without a second thought and write off these people as racists.

Though I do note the date of this report is 2011, and things have changed considerably this year, I do think its the right tone and probably the best way to kick off a thread like this.

The Conservatives fail due to membership numbers declining and a general lack of new blood - and therefore ideas - coming through.

You say this, but DH was at the 2015 count, where Nicola Blackwood got in with an increased majority for the Tories. She's mid to late 30s in age, and according to him, had a coterie of young braying Tories with her.

Cameron and Osborne are still young in political terms. We know what has happened to Cameron. Osborne might still get a second wind, and be a bit better the second time round than he was the first time. (We have to live in hope!)

I'd just like to point out that I'm not at all trying to defend Farage/Trump etc

I can see that. In the spirit of this thread we have managed to find some areas of common ground.

Peregina, they are clearly attracting career politicians but they are not attracting a net gain in membership. There is a difference here between voter patterns and actual membership which is an important distinction.

It means they will be less able to operate on a local area over time. Yes they have the councillors presently but they also need the back up behind that.

This is one reason why they have switched to mailing out leaflets centrally rather than relying on people on the ground to go and do this (and potentially have direct contact with people on the ground).

There is no way they can be 'in touch' if this pattern continues. Social media provides a new way to connect but doesn't connect with everyone and give feedback in a constructive fashion. Its limited in its scope. And even here the Conservatives are way behind the curve of just about every other party.

Even more generally in the whole population they are not attracting as many supporters in the younger age groups as Corbyn.

Red The Conservatives are so desperate for candidates for the local Council that they asked me

Just place marking as a Scottish Lexiter but a couple of points on the discussion so far.

I am not a fan of coalitions and would never vote Lib or any other minority Party other than tactically. I said on another thread I think the coalition effectively neutered Parliament because Tory and Liberal back benchers could not speak out against whatever behind the scenes horse trading had gone on.

All that said I have to give credit to the SNP for providing effective opposition from the backbenches.

the chips are down, Farage won't come to bail your Mum and Dad out, of that I am 100% certain.

It has been increasingly the case over the last 20 years that no-one else will either and in the face of that people prefer to keep their own money to self-insure as much as possible rather than paying in taxes which will never be there for them.

Would like to see analysis of the Tory supporter / worker demographic for Scotland as there is a feeling that RD has had some success in re-energising the base.

I really like Ruth Davidson; she seems very no nonsense & pragmatic.

There are quite a few MPs who have the non-sneery common touch now, but they're still up & coming - the 2010 & 2015 intake.

My experience of dealing with local government is that it is massively unaccountable and undemocratic. The Leader of the majority party has basically got the power to do more or less what they want and residents who object can form protest groups, mobilise their resources, march and even take decisions to Judicial Review but the system is massively loaded against them because that Leader has access all the resources of the Council including the money at his disposal. Local Councillors have to toe the line or be expelled from the party. The majority party have the majority in sub committees to swing planning decisions etc. and even in scrutiny committees. In any case the general quality of the debate is pretty abysmal, watching webcasts of our local council meetings is cringeworthy, like a low rent version of the Commons, lots of childish name calling and blaming, a few sleeping or playing on their phones.

And yet many of the decisions they are able to force through have nothing to do with party politics. Instead of having a debate about what is best for the community you get tribal politics and decisions delivered on the basis of the interests and friends of those who have the Council Leader's ear.

Rant over but it is from the heart.

winter:
I re-read your post from earlier - I had sort of skimmed over it before. In the spirit of finding things to agree on, I will say that large hordes of foreign criminals rampaging and murdering their way across the UK would be a terrible thing. If I believed that this was an accurate assessment of the situation, and if I also believed that leaving the EU would fix this problem, then I would have voted leave.

whatwouldrondo: Thats really interesting (but a bit depressing) about local government, it is a subject I know very little about.
Mango: I quite like Ruth Davidson too! I am much more left wing than her, but she is one of the few politicians I can think of who is actually genuinely funny without being cringey. I think that the Scottish Conservatives have been pretty effective recently at distancing themselves from the main Tory party, and I think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out in the future.
There's a lot I like about Sturgeon too, but disagree strongly with her on Independence unfortunately.

Quite a few of the Scottish politicians have the same appeal for me.

They're very 'no nonsense' - I like that approach.

I would add that every wealthy country on earth attracts criminals from their poorer neighbours whatever their border controls. Criminals are not known for their respect for authority or borders or whether they are EU or non EU Europeans. Only 12% of those in our prisons are foreign nationals, a figure that has not changed since 2002, and almost as many originate in Africa and Asia as Europe. If they do not arrive on a plane on a tourist visa they will find some other way of smuggling themselves in.

Of course you are ten times as likely to be the victim of a crime perpetrated by a British national, so should be ten times as worried sick about the possibility, or not, since the chances of being a victim of serious crime overall is going down.

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

Another fan of Ruth Donaldson, and Nicola Sturgeon. If only they would come south and be PM and Leader of the Opposition.......

Going back to the London issue, I remember reading about optimum city size. Can't remember the precise details but, ideally, a capital city = 100%, 3 or 4 next level cities = 50%, 6 or 7 next level cities = 50% of them etc. And that seems to create a more balanced national economy. Germany, Italy and France seem to get this right but the UK's problem is London = 100% whilst Birmingham and Manchester = about 25%. Something like that - I may have somme details wrong. The point is, it's drastically unbalanced. I'm not sure there is a solution, tbh.

I am a fan of austerity because I do not want my grandchildren to be saddled with a pile of debt.

Here's a newsflash Tryingtosaveup. Austerity means our children, their children and probably their grandchildren will be saddled with debt. Now is the best time in history for government to borrow, as interest rates are at an all time low.

I meant to point this out earlier but forgot. Austerity will push debt onto the individual - (y)our children and grandchildren will indeed be saddled with far more debt than we ever had to contend with. Student loans alone will be a massive burden.

The point is, it's drastically unbalanced. I'm not sure there is a solution, tbh. Swedishedith
So true. Many of us have migrated down south for work, probably messing up the local culture, and access to services. Lovely little country towns have become outer sub urbs of London and precious green belt land is being decimated, and flood plains are being built on. The lack of wealth, properly paid jobs and culture spread across the whole (rather beautiful ) country has exacerbated or caused the current political pickle.

A long term honest economic and social plan to sustain the whole country's livelihoods, services and businesses might have pre empted some of this.

Doesn't Germany plan housing, services, where jobs are needed, the training needed for them, across the whole country? I wish we could do something similar.

And yet many of the decisions they are able to force through have nothing to do with party politics. Instead of having a debate about what is best for the community you get tribal politics and decisions delivered on the basis of the interests and friends of those who have the Council Leader's ear.
Sounds awful, do you think it would change if more people(women) got involved whatwouldrondo? How difficult is it to be a councillor do you think?

There are quite a few women involved and I would give some of them due respect for beavering under the radar to get things done pragmatically as long as it does not reach their leader's agenda. Others are just career politicians and get away with doing precisely nothing to engage locally. However when it comes to big issues, and I am talking about digging up local parks, giving away a rare school site in the face of a need for school places, then they don't speak up and they do engage in the whole it is all their fault culture (and it is actually at root both their faults). It is not hard to become a Councillor, I have been asked by both main parties here, but to actually effectively represent the issues of your voters in this environment is I think impossible except in small ways.

Thanks to RTB and bored for starting this thread. It's gone very quiet.

At one stage it looked like hatred of Tony Blair might be a "thing in common" but then some spoil sport posters started defending him.

I wondered if "celebrating the end of Zac Goldsmiths political career" might be a thing in common? His campaign for mayor of London really plumbed the depths and I, for one, am delighted to see the back of him.

I appear to be stalking you today Wrong...!!

I agree, Zac's a twat.

Also united in being appalled at the tweets to Anna Soubry.
Debate is good, opposition is good - hatred is not.

I wondered if I might see you over here Mango

Got to agree about Zac

I feel the 'Leave' vote has given bigots wind in their sails to up their levels of bigotry.

Those that previously felt unable to speak, are now speaking freely. Those that spoke freely are now targetting people like Anna Soubry. I worry about what is to happen next. I feel intense anger at leave voters for enabling this to happen.

I myself voted remain because all along I felt this was a vote of small mindedness versus open mindedness.

Having said this, I do believe one good thing has come out of it, that politics has been ignited again in this country and smug, pompous politicians are now realising they are going to have to start doing something or they'll be out.

ClaudiaApfelstrudel

I feel the 'Leave' vote has given bigots wind in their sails to up their levels of bigotry

If you do feel that, then I think you need to try to put aside your EU differences and stand together with people who are against bigotry, whether they want to stay in the EU or leave, rather than trying to lay the blame for bigotry at the door of people who are no more bigots than you are.

I felt this was a vote of small mindedness versus open mindedness

This is a thread about "things in common". I know anyone is entitled to post on any thread, but wouldn't it be nice to keep this thread for the purpose it was started and not start with the insults?