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Brexit

'The Brexit Arms' is now open. Friendly cosy pub with log fire for leavers & remainers to chat & ponder life, the universe, & Brexit.

1000 replies

surferjet · 30/10/2016 16:43

You are all most welcome Wine

OP posts:
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16
time4chocolate · 03/11/2016 23:19

EU/FIFA same model different game!!

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 23:32

Ok this is post will not be well received, but I'm going to spell this out as clearly and as honestly as I can.

Immigration is going to fall.

The reason.

The pound's value has fallen. We are now going to have labour shortages in certain areas. There are already signs of it being reported. This is going to get more apparent as the months go on, but it will be particularly obvious as we go into Christmas and when next Summer comes around.

Not to mention our recent superb work on international relations led by Ms Rudd and the Daily Mail which is having people doing as they are told and 'going back to where they come from'.

We will also have an exodus on our hands for talent as jobs move abroad together with some of our best talent (and bigger tax payers).

We do not need to Leave to reduce net migration through control set in law or treaties. And this will quickly become apparent enough.

This also means anyone on benefits is going to be in for a particularly nasty shock as there is even less sympathy for them and why aren't they working (which massively over simplifies some of the reasons and problems which face people who are in this situation).

Just watch, wait and see.

Immigration will slowly slip into the background as those figures drop in the eyes of politicians . Then what? Are those views that have popped up in the referendum debate and subsequent fall out going to disappear accordingly? Are the public and press going to see it the same way? Or will it just lay the ugliest of opinions bear for all to see?

It'll be interesting to see won't it?

In the eyes of politicians, then the issue becomes primarily about the economy. If the economy starts to head south, which it will, then what? Suddenly the Brexit debate shifts to the economy and if shifts to the economy then the argument changes. Simply because it HAS to. Because they have a responsibility to look after the public - which they can only do with money in their back pocket.

And support for Brexit is likely to shift with any direction the economy takes.

Especially if the squeeze on the NHS continues or gets worse in any way.

yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/27/what-would-make-leave-voters-change-their-mind-abo/
Do look at the list of things which will make people change their minds about Brexit and the percentage points involved. Its interesting.

What if public opinion does shift? Shouldn't we follow the will of the people then? Or just continue with an historic will as of the on 23rd June 2016 which is now out of date and is not reflective of the current situation?

Since we are always moving forward and things are always changing, shouldn't we be pragmatic and shouldn't we be open to the idea that the will of the people is not a fixed thing, but a shape shifting thing that evolves over time?

Genuine questions by the way. We should consider this, especially in the context of how the vote was split and how close it was.

Why? Because the referendum was advisory (and was only advisory for this reason) and requires this sophisticated thinking as well as a single vote.

And this is why some Leave voters are really afraid. Because they know it will come out. Not because the merit of the many of the Leave arguments will hold up to the poking they need. But because they simply don't. They will fall apart bit by bit as parliamentary debate and scrutiny moves forward and other factors change.

This is why any Brexit we get is likely to be end up being economically led and immigration WILL come as a secondary thought.

The elephant in the room for a while has been the Great Cake debate which is not going away. Will we will have our cake and eat it? Or course we won't. We will control immigration and retain access to the Single Market? No we won't.

Its been stated outright that the EU will not allow this and we HAVE to accept free movement of people. There is no way around this.

Think this is a Remain POV?

peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/the-brexit-fallout-is-all-part-of.html
This is a blog from a committed leaver. Not a single word about immigration. Why? Because like I say, immigration is about to drop down the agenda. Fast. Because we can not afford to keep it at the top with even the best will in the world.

The Great Unicorn of Cakeland got scragged, run over and reversed over repeatedly by the car crash called reality. The a50 ruling does one thing and one thing alone in this department. It does not stop Brexit. It just brought this moment of reality hitting the unicorn to a head quicker than perhaps it would have. Had May just been able to plough on in her own unchecked manner it might not be noticed until later down the road but it still would have happened. It is noticed now, purely because its a moment where the public who aren't as politically interested have had their heads turns and minds focused by the court's decision.

It leaves a lot of people bewildered because they think that democracy is just about voting. Its not. It never has been. Nor should it ever be, because the tyranny of majorities is the road to a civilisation of intolerance and fear when minorities are effectively persecuted and marginalised for not fitting in with the majority.

The problem is Brexit might mean Brexit but by the same token, the law is the law too. Both sit side by side and are not necessarily in contradiction or collision. Indeed, without law then Brexit breaks down too.

The best option for Brexit is an EEA type option which will include FoM and that's where the only possible consensus will be found and will be acceptable to the EU.

The alternative is utter chaos out of sheer stubbornness over an issue, which is largely about to disappear because circumstances have change and the goal posts have moved as a direct result of the referendum decision - even without the need for it to be followed through on.

Brexit NEEDS a pragmatic and flexible response because its a developing and changing situation. That's exactly what we are not getting from the government nor huge parts of the public and media.

RedToothBrush · 03/11/2016 23:39

There is corruption in the EU.
There is corruption in the UK government.
There is corruption in local government.

You do not get rid of it, by simply opting out of a system of governance. Simply because all governing bodies are vulnerable to it.

You deal with it, through transparency and accountability.

You know like what the court ruling says when it says parliament needs to deal with a50 rather than the crown.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 03/11/2016 23:43

Brilliant post Red.

AutumnLeavesAgain · 03/11/2016 23:45

There is rain in Brighton.

There is rain in Spain.

And then there is Glasgow rain..

time4chocolate · 03/11/2016 23:49

red - how do you get transparency and accountability from the EU. That sounds a bit like trying to push water up a hill.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 00:02

For starters, you publicise and encourage interest in it in the UK?

How many of you watched an EU debate before the EU ref? I hadn't. It surprised me.
How much had you looked into what the EU did or said before the EU ref?
I've been surprised at how much IS there, if you look.

Did you know there was an European Freedom of Information law? No I didn't until yesterday.

The point we are not looking for these things or engaging with the EU. Nor do our papers don't. Therefore we conclude there is no transparency and we are stuck in a mentality which assumes its not there. Because we've never bothered to test out that mentality or question what we have been told about transparency. Or to challenge the lack of it properly.

We have a ridiculous situation where much of this is coming from our UKIP MEPs, who say there isn't any transparency. We don't question their impartially here. But they don't bother to even turn up at debates themselves so are effectively put themselves out of the loop on a lot of things as a direct result of their own behaviour.

And some bloke off the telly is able to get more done than a serving MEP. Which says a lot.

Engagement and interest in how the EU works and what it does is at least 80% of the problem. Its not the complete answer, but it would go a long way to exposing the problem so it can be acted on further.

I could easily say similar things about local government by the way too. Which is interesting in its own right.

Marmitelover55 · 04/11/2016 00:40

Sorry after s few glasses of wine tonight (whilst the exchange rate allies me) - are we now heading back to a softer brexit?

What would have happened if David Cameron had triggered article 50 when he said he would? Would this still have been unlawful and what would the consequences been?
Thanks.

Marmitelover55 · 04/11/2016 00:41

Oops - maybe not the right thread...

time4chocolate · 04/11/2016 00:46

With all due respect the horse has bolted from that particular stable and we can't turn the clock back. Also, who on earth has the time (whether leave, remain or indifferent) to trawl through everything about the EU and it's policies going forward and to raise questions to make sure we have transparency (I did enough of that in the six months prior to June). There are lots of people on your threads saying along the lines of thanks red for posting your links I don't have time to find them myself, I'm too busy etc.etc.

I think your post and ideas would be better aimed at the 12m or so disengaged people that couldn't be bothered to vote.

I am though a strong believer (even more so now) in bringing politics back to schools well before A level age and it is something that I discuss in detail with my young teens.

WinchesterWoman · 04/11/2016 04:23

I don't need anyone to explain to to me slowly. My understanding is complete.

It is not about numbers. A full act of parliament would allow endless delay and amendment, threats around other issues, legal challenges. This is the hope of those who want to override s democratic mandate. This is your hope. To pretend otherwise is lying. I haven't any respect for your aspirations, your methods, or your lying about it now. But then, you've no respect for me and 17 million others have you? You are pretending to respect democracy - you're bunch of fakes. Unlike you however I don't hope the country goes down to toilet to prove you wrong.

Cxc78 · 04/11/2016 07:51

Tell someone who gives a crap whinging woman yawn

Kaija · 04/11/2016 07:55

It's sad that you feel that way. But this is democracy. It's what you (presumably) voted for.

Regardless of the effect this judgment has on the Brexit process (and it's too early to say what that will be), it is hard to understand why anyone who supports democracy would prefer governments to be empowered to strip us of our rights without parliamentary debate.

As to the country's economic prospects, you saw the effect of this judgment on the pound. But you think this is a bad thing? Whose interests do you have at heart?

Bearbehind · 04/11/2016 08:14

Whose interests do you have at heart?

I think leavers reaction to yesterday's news has made the answer to that very clear.

StorminaBcup · 04/11/2016 08:20

Apt.

'The Brexit Arms' is now open. Friendly cosy pub with log fire for leavers & remainers to chat & ponder life, the universe, & Brexit.
Bitofacow · 04/11/2016 08:21

A full act of parliament would allow endless delay and amendment, threats around other issues, legal challenges.

WW because democracy takes time in the same way justice takes time. Dictators make fast, clear decisions which is why some people like them. Democracy is messy and long winded. Parliamentary scrutiny takes time.

I am not debating leave vs remain I explaining the constitutional issues. What I want is irrelevant. Parliament must debate and vote because in the UK Parliament is sovereign.

What I want respected by all is parliamentary process and the rule of law.

And once again, the referendum was not a democratic mandate it was an advisory referendum. No matter how much you want it to be otherwise that is not the case. This is a matter of law not opinion.

Petronius16 · 04/11/2016 08:41

All are welcome

Remainers are banned

Another Bojo moment?

Ah well, just wanted to say I can't see why everyone's getting so excited, MPs will vote to leave, the Lords will do the same, eventually, end result the same.

Enjoyed the company, shame about that, didn't like the rosé but ... as in my world few are taking much interest in Brexit - it was nice to listen to some of the chat. Bit mutton jeff, you see. See ya.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 09:13

The trouble is Winchester is that even if the government and everyone else in parliament WANT to end FoM they can not.

The card is simply not on the negotiating table from the EU.

The very best that could be available is a redefinition of what FoM means (namely you can't move without a firm job offer) but this is not want people want and will be regarded probably as clutching at straws anyway.

The EU can not give it away not because they are difficult or hate the UK and want to punish us, but because for several countries the principle is crucial to their national interest and not just on economic grounds.

Our choice is simply how hard do we want it economically. That's it. Essentially Brexit is nothing more than a damage limitation exercise that eventually comes down to one simple question:

Do you want to stop immigration completely or do you want to save the NHS and have some welfare system?

The a50 ruling removes what May has been hiding behind to avoid this being public knowledge. The government already know this is really the choice. The leaks are there. The panic is there. They do not want parliamentary scrutiny, not because they don't want the EU to know their hand, the EU know the UK's hand.

Its because they don't want YOU to know their hand.

They do not want the British public to understand the real choice here. They can survive without the NHS and welfare. There are many Tories who want rid of both. Strangely enough the ones on the right of the party who also happen to be the very same ones who are into hard brexit.

Forcing a50 through parliament lifts the lid on what is going on in Whitehall and forces the reality to leak out.

MPs who do care about this country, and there are actually plenty on both sides of the house, and do care about their constituents are going to be faced with a choice at some point. And that's not going to be about whether or not they respect the referendum. Its simply going to be about what the can salvage for the less privileged in society and how much they believe in looking after the most vulnerable in society.

This is why democracy and parliament is important. To prevent Brexit being spun in a way that does not reflect the situation as much as possible. To allow the public to have at least some opportunity to make up their own minds.

The press are not going to be kind with that or be honest about it though either.

Ending FoM can only happen with hard brexit. Hard brexit is not compatible with a public love for the NHS. With the best will in the world and the best case scenarios about what being a free trader can bring to the uk it still leaves a massive gap in the public finances that can not be filled.

Its not me talking the UK down. Its down to the fact that we have already have an economic black hole that prevents us from making such a leap - with the NHS intact - if we want to attempt to make that jump. And that gap is only going to increase in the short term as the costs of Brexit start to stack up.

I would actually like to be able to say in a way that there could be a deal made on FoM. Why? Because it politically could stop of really negative things happening which are about to.

'Hard remainers' are getting a very hard press in a lot of quarters. If they were viewed as people who simply value the NHS rather than unrelenting Europhiles than maybe the political landscape would be somewhat different.

The thing is, I'm realistic. That's not the way its going to play out. It is, however, how it is. Just people trying to make the best of the situation we now find ourselves in.

This is the hope of those who want to override s democratic mandate. This is your hope. To pretend otherwise is lying

All I have to say to that is lots of people voted to leave because they were led to believe it would help the NHS, even if they didn't think the NHS would get 350million quid.

And you want through stuff about a democratic mandate and lying at me?

If only.

The whole situation breaks my heart.

MangoMoon · 04/11/2016 09:59

Petronius all are definitely welcome!

Tbh this is the one thread I keep coming back to - it gets a bit full on in parts, but mostly people aren't being too obnoxious.

I find most of the Brexit threads too circular & tedious tbh, but this one's been ok in the main.

I'm sure if it was a RL pub we'd mostly get along fine - lots of posters with strong opinions & personalities.

RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 10:20

Btw, the Chairpersons of 2 of the UK's most powerful Select Committees have written to Theresa May and other Cabinet members to stop lying about NHS funding. These are Sarah Wollaston (CON), Chair of the Health Committee and Meg Hillier (LAB), Chair of the Public Accounts Committee.

Note they would need support of their respective cross party committee to write such letters.

autumnintheair · 04/11/2016 11:14

The elephant in the room for a while has been the Great Cake debate which is not going away. Will we will have our cake and eat it? Or course we won't. We will control immigration and retain access to the Single Market? No we won't

Its been stated outright that the EU will not allow this and we HAVE to accept free movement of people. There is no way around this

The EU will not allow this.

This is not a categorical fact and as Frank Field said - this government needs to be on a full on Brexit footing. Churchill put the Government on a war footing to win the war and this is what we need re Brexit.
We also need and one hopes the UK is reaching out to business leaders in the EU to put pressure on them to put pressure onto their leaders re Brexit.

Its all very well saying - the EU wont allow it - but the EU is simply not in a strong position right now. I totally understand but don't necessarily agree with their tough stance on us - but when push comes to shove I simply don't buy Merkel facing down her car manufacturers and punishing them over our Brexit, same with all the other business leaders. Merkel is clinging on by a thread, her country is about to burst into flames, its coming under enormous pressures and she is pushing them in every way imaginable.
Its just not that simple and easy to punish us in this way.

I also find the immigration argument perplexing, that we keep getting told we need this FOM when we are one of the most densely populated islands on this planet!

RBeer · 04/11/2016 11:25

For the first time I can now envisage no Brexit. Parliament will enact leg to call a second ref which leave will lose.
I now rate the chance of a hard Brexit at 0%, a soft at 10% and no Brexit at 90%.
Interesting times indeed.

surferjet · 04/11/2016 11:38

I'll have £100 on A50 still being triggered in March.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/11/2016 11:38

autumn, then we differ on that.

I think the EU is in trouble. But I think their approach to saving the EU is different to the one you envisage.

And yes you are correct it does depend on what political developments happen in other European countries too and who we end up dealing with (a point I've made before).

As for the car industry. Germany has already made political decisions this year that does not put car manufacturers lobbying first. They have ruled to end production of combustion engines by 2030. Its a smart move to push the industry to adapt ahead of competition rather than be led by industry which wishes only to stick to the market it is familiar with. So the industry is about to go through a lot of change anyway.

We will see how it pans out won't we?

jaws5 · 04/11/2016 11:57

The horrified reaction of Brexiters to the ruling yesterday surprised me. Even worse is the antidemocratic reaction of the gutter press today.
I learned about separation of powers at school (European Baccalaureate many years ago) so I assumed that it's a concept at least familiar to people in the UK. But the fact is that many still think that a referendum overrides parliament, and don't understand that the legislative, judicial and executive powers exist as separate entities, and that is in order to protect the democratic process and prevent abuse of power.

The government powers should be exercised by legislative, executive and judicial, within their own limitations and should also check each and other www.lawteacher.net

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