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Brexit
Original poster

Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

649 replies

twofingerstoGideon · 19/10/2016 16:23

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 10:35

" But so many people are afflicted with that special kind of arrogance they imagine their own minority view should take precedence"

Oh bullshit, in fact forcing through a hard brexit as you seem to want to do is the minority view, and continually painting a vote that was won by 3% (so within the margin of error) is utter drivel.

The only reason you and the politicians are keen to do so is because you know there wouldn't be a cat in hell's chance of it actually getting support from the electorate. Especially as your side had to use post truth arguments, which many have woken up to since, to win.

whatwouldrondo · 20/10/2016 10:36

Oh and WinchesterWoman Our last conversation, and the one before that, and the one before that, was not "sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending the vote didn't hapensadsad and anyway what they think is like, best, because they're self evidently more important than the people who disagree with them. Oh and less stupid of course and they're a nicer apparently so their votes count more."

It was me asking you nicely, and yes I do try to be nice, for you to come up with some substance to your views and actually respond to my point instead of just lobbing rhetorical grenades........

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 11:19

WW just repeats herself over and over again, as I said all of these hard brexiteers are merely attempting to use a very small majority, won on post truth arguments, to force through something that the general populace would never have voted for if it had been on the ballot. Even prior to the vote Boris and others were saying we could retain access to the single market even if we left the EU, the hard brexit stance and its implications were dismissed as "project fear" (another post truthism)

If you'd put leave the single market on there the vote would have been different.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2016 12:01

FitnessFad

Brexit is happening - PLEASE accept it!

Is it just me, or does that carry an edge of hysteria Hmm ?

WinchesterWoman · 20/10/2016 12:42

Post truth my arse
New liberal totalitarian catch phrase

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 12:44

Post truth:

Post-truth politics (also called post-factual politics) is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored.

Sounds exactly like the leave campaign to me.

Fingers in ears though eh WW.

WinchesterWoman · 20/10/2016 12:45

Designed to day's typos people are voting wrong'
Really means fuck they spotted the obvious despite our attempts to hide it'

WinchesterWoman · 20/10/2016 12:46

Designed to say 'stupid people are voting wrong'
Really means 'fuck'

Hope my corrections are helpful
At least they aren't pomous

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 12:48

So lets list the post truth arguments:

£350 million - yup.

Turkey about to join. Bingo

EU Army. True

Immigrants impact heavily on services, take jobs, impact the poor etc etc. Yup they used that one too.

Quite frankly WW if you don't think the brexit argument was all post truth you're really deluded.

Mistigri · 20/10/2016 12:48

I dont really understand how people "accepting brexit" makes the slightest difference.

If Brexit is such a good idea, it'll be a success all on its own.

Brexit's problem isn't the people opposing it, but the morons promoting it, both inside and outside government.

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 12:50

"Designed to say 'stupid people are voting wrong'
Really means 'fuck'"

The entire leave campaign was based on Post Truth arguments, there was very little factual evidence and all of it was appeals to emotion.

In fact your attempt at rebuttal is also post truth, because no one said it was stupid people, but you have attempted an appeal to emotion there.

Want to play some more? Its fun.

jaws5 · 20/10/2016 12:50

Thanks to TM and the Brexit discourse, it is now open season for people like WW to show their hatred for debate, progress and intelligence. How very frightening.

WinchesterWoman · 20/10/2016 12:56

I guess trump will have all your moral support if he declines to accept a win for hc

WinchesterWoman · 20/10/2016 12:58

I'm not sure if there's a pole far enough up my butt to join in

Isn't that a pre eequisite

TheElementsSong · 20/10/2016 13:04

Post truth and through the looking glass.

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 13:08

Ah the good old "pole up your butt" argument.

So you don't think post truth is a thing then? Its quite a well recognised phenomenon.

Trump is the biggest user of it!

Lottapianos · 20/10/2016 13:11

I am desperately hoping that Teresa May has a cunning plan up her sleeve and is just stalling for time and appearing to play hardball to keep the Eurosceptics in her party happy. If she was so very pro-Brexit, I don't understand why she wouldn't call an election. The Tories would walk it and would end up with a whole new, even bigger mandate to carry out 'hard' Brexit or whatever kind of Brexit they fancy. I'm hoping that she's waiting for Boris, David and Liam to make the world's biggest arse-up of the negotiations so that we simply can't go through with it, but she will be seen to have played by the rules. This would also be the end of Boris, which would have me doing my happy-clappy dance for a very long time.

Going through with Brexit, wasting time and money and energy on years of negotiations and unpicking thousands of agreements, seems like diving off a cliff face first.

Mistigri · 20/10/2016 13:19

I guess trump will have all your moral support if he declines to accept a win for hc

Do you really not understand the difference or are you just trolling? :-/

None of us disputes the right of the Tory party to be in government - they won the election.

OTOH, that does not oblige any of us to support Tory party policies - especially those for which no electoral mandate exists (like a hard Brexit, or even any sort of Brexit, since this was not in the election manifesto).

Opposition is a fundamental part of democracy, but refusing to accept the result of an election is profoundly undemocratic.

TheElementsSong · 20/10/2016 13:41

Opposition is a fundamental part of democracy, but refusing to accept the result of an election is profoundly undemocratic.

This may be the crux of the matter for some posters here - a difference in opinion between what constitutes "accepting the result" and "opposition".

For them it may be that "accepting" means at a minimum, total absence of dissent, and perhaps even a 1984-style total conversion with slavish devotion to the cause.

For me personally, I accept that the result was to Leave. However, I oppose that outcome and do so by exercising my democratic right to talk and write about it, and join with/provide support funding for collectives sharing my view, as much as I damn well please.

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2016 13:58

If she was so very pro-Brexit, I don't understand why she wouldn't call an election.

There's an old adage - David Cameron seemed to forget - that you never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

Besides, the British electorate have shown they can't be trusted to come to the right decision.

Mistigri · 20/10/2016 14:03

A referendum is not an election. A referendum can be legislated for such that the outcome has a compulsory effect, but if this is the case, you would hope that the referendum question would be framed carefully and precisely, so that the government does not end up in the position of having to give effect to a politically impossible result (see: Switzerland).

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 16:35

The mood has changed.

Why?

a50 challenge looks like it has a fair chance of winning and the government will struggle get their vision through without proper parliamentary scrutiny. Politically May is on thin ice. Reality is kicking in, and the implications crystalising.

I think it could flip back completely the other way though, so don't get too carried away. I think its going to be a series of victories and defeats for both sides of the debate.

smallfox2002 · 20/10/2016 17:09

I thought the court challenge was loolong shaky?

Kaija · 20/10/2016 17:19

There seem to be change of mood on the Conservative Home website:

www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2016/10/garvan-walshe-the-government-is-making-the-same-five-strategic-mistakes-on-brexit-that-we-made-in-iraq.html

It feels as though we are far enough away from the actual vote now that most people (not all of course) are able to forget about whether they were on the winning or losing side, while enough evidence of economic harm is coming through to focus minds on how to minimise further damage. But as Red says, it could all swing back. The Mail, the Sun and the Express, as predicted, are ignoring economic news and upping the anti-migrant headlines, and who knows what Arron Banks is planning to bring back with him from his Trumping expedition...

Keep writing to your MPs

LurkingHusband · 20/10/2016 17:24

and who knows what Arron Banks is planning to bring back with him from his Trumping expedition...

How to ignore reality, if the recent pronouncements have any truth ...