Does anyone else sense a change of mood re Brexit?

[twofingerstoGideon]

I was rather astounded following the referendum that politicians of all shades weren't making noises about Brexit needing parliamentary scrutiny etc., but at last - after almost four months - it's as if people are waking up, noticing the shambles and saying "Hang on a minute... I'm not sure we should be doing this..." It was shocking to see the lack of reaction to the xenophobia and the way politicians of all shades seemed to be saying we had to blindly obey the very slim majority. The lack of disgust expressed by the press/politicians about the barefaced lies used by the Leave campaign (not to mention that poster) was also mind-blowing.

Has anyone else noticed a change in the air? I'm starting to feel slightly hopeful for the first time since 24th June that the country isn't just going to jump off a cliff in order to follow 'the will of the people'.

Anyone else, or am I deluded?

corcory no, the elderly wouldn't be likely to riot, and thugs would. That's what the law and police are for. But maybe the first step should be for the many decent MPs who do live in the real world and do care about their country, to actually explain to "the people" that this is catastrophic and how. Then try to minimise the huge damage and division already caused by the referendum.
Johnsson/Fox/Davis/May/Patel are not honest enough to do this and are playing their own political games, plus they don't have the courage and vision, so we are fucked.

WW do you think you could have squeezed any more cliches into your post?

But in response to OP I do think the mood is changing as the realities of what's happening are starting to bite. I also think that many politicians from every party are positioning themselves with a view to minimise the damage to this madness.

The whole "will of the nation" rhetoric is pissing me right off. As someone else has said, a 52-48 split doesn't show you that "the nation" wants to leave the EU. It shows you that the country is deeply divided and maybe some actual thought should go into what to do next, rather than frog-marching the whole country into a deep recession. I will be appalled if May, Davis, Johnson, Fox et al get to "interpret" the result of the referendum however they bloody well like with no parliamentary debates. There was so little actual information provided before the referendum that I think there simply have to be debates and some kind of cross-party consensus on the kind of Brexit we are going to have.

But maybe the first step should be for the many decent MPs who do live in the real world and do care about their country, to actually explain to "the people" that this is catastrophic and how.

And stop trying to keep the Tory party together by appeasing their UKIP wing as their sole objective, or if Labour, fighting their internal battles. What a disgrace both parties have been this summer.

Tonight in BBC news a British diplomat (I think he was a UK ambassador in Germany) explained how European countries are going to place the European ideals before deals with UK. This was in response to claims that Germany will be eager to keep exporting cars to UK and wiling to bend on that. He said, and I totally agree, that Brits totally underestimate the pride and importance of the European project in Europe, it's about cohesion and collaboration, not just economics, and they'll be sticking together even if it means losing on a few exports to UK. No one is waiting in line for UK. It's time to start accepting that.

Yes peregrina I'm so disappointed in Labour. Appalling.

I too think the mood is changing, but I worry about more about our political leadership, especially Teresa May and David Davis. She's a peculiar mix - she comes across as rigid and intractable but at the same time a hard edged political opportunist rather than an ideologue.

Yes figment she's coming across as a resentful opportunist, and unless she's a very good actress, she's got no clue what she's doing as she has all the ambition but none of the stature or intellect.

What a disgrace both parties have been this summer.
Yes. Disgraceful.

What a disgrace both parties have been this summer

I agree.

Tories are now storming ahead in the polls with I think an 18 point lead against Labour.

There's 16 million voters who need decent representation, ffs! Corbyn is a moron (but after his Remain "campaign" we knew that).

Figment ive been hoping that repetition would hammer the message home. But so many people are afflicted with that special kind of arrogance they imagine their own minority view should take precedenceits almost as if they were sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending the vote didn't hapen and anyway what they think is like, best, because they're self evidently more important than the people who disagree with them. Oh and less stupid of course and they're a nicer apparently so their votes count more.

I think that sums up the last conversation I had on this.

I am, and was a remainer. My DM (a Brexiteer) told me the other day that she didn't know what the fuss was all about. I mean, she said, nothing's changed, has it?

Errr, no Mum - nothing's changed except that a) Article 50 has not been triggered so we are still in the EU and b) if you wanted to travel abroad and change some money, you're in for a nasty shock. Good job she doesn't like Marmite...

My elderly neighbour (also pro Brexit) asked me if I wanted to join the new branch of the Conservatives. Even if I did, I knew I'd be surrounded by a load of elderly Brexiteers. I thought it was sensible to decline her offer.

It is an unholy mess, and is going to take a lot of constitutional unravelling.

That's the spirit - it's hard so don't bother

But so many people are afflicted with that special kind of arrogance they imagine their own bare majority view should take precedence over almost half the electorate its almost as if they were sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending the racist attacks, brain drain, job losses, power grab of the executive away from our sovereign parliament and economic effects didn't happen and anyway what they think is like, best, because they're self evidently more important than the people who disagree with them because people who disagree with them are traitors and they wish they'd be silenced and if only they would die or could be imprisoned in the Tower. Oh and less of potentially foreign extraction of course and they're more patriotic apparently so their votes count more.

@Winchesterwoman

Why do you think that those who did not win in a vote should stop putting forward their point of view?

When the Conservatives won the last election, did you expect opposition parties to go home and keep quiet until the next election? If Labour had won would you have expected Tories to do the same? That is not how it works.

No-one can claim that 52:48 is a strong mandate. And what is it for? Leaving the single market? Imposing immigration controls? The so-called leaders of the 52 can not agree among themselves about what they wanted.

Brexit will be bad for the UK and bad for Europe. I think most thinking people know this.

There's not much point in arguing with WW. She is deliberately provactive to get a reaction. There's no substance to her stance other than 'we won you lost'

But so many people are afflicted with that special kind of arrogance they imagine their own minority view should take precedence

Indeed. But this applies to both sides. The problem here is that the Brexit group is split into at least three sub-groups, who all want different things:

• the hard Brexit group, who are prepared to accept almost any degree of economic damage to keep out the foreigners
• the soft Brexit group, who have always wanted an EEA-type compromise and who are, in some cases, horrified by the authoritarian and racist rhetoric being used by the first group
• the unicorns group, many of whom probably haven't thought much about brexit since the referendum and who may still believe that simultaneous eating of cake and having cake is possible

The problem for the government is that the amount of economic damage that the latter two groups will accept is limited - especially the unicorns group, in which the least educated and least wealthy brexiters are overrepresented.

There's no point arguing with ww.
On a more interesting note, HyperNormalisation, the Adam Curtis documentary, helps to explain those three groups *mistigri, especially the unicorns. Brexit rethoric is simple and the world is more complicated than ever. That's why Brexiters keep repeating their mantra, but they're missing 99% of the picture.

The thing is, this is massively fucking up young people. But by the time brexit negotiations are done (whatever that means) many more of those young people will be able to vote, and many old brexit voters will have died. There will be a lot of resentment and anger from millions of young people trapped in what's left of UK by then

My very comfortably well off ILs claim Brexit has had no impact because people are still drinking coffee in cafes in town and the garden centre is still busy. They said the same about the recession, apparently it was 'all in people's heads' and they didn't know what all the fuss was about.

All this while DH was made redundant and was out of work for almost a year. So excuse me if I feel extremely upset about being put in danger of facing the same stressful situation again by a bunch of daily mail readers with final salary pensions and savings that make them immune to the fall out of this mess.

FarAway I have a final salary pension - which isn't actually all that much. As for savings - with interest rates so low, I would do as well keeping my money under the mattress, but I voted Remain anyway and would only use the Daily Mail for wrapping up rubbish.

WInchesterWoman Glad to see you back, we were in the middle of a debate elsewhere when you obviously became busy and had to go off and discuss what a nice man that Mr Trump is No matter we all have a life.

However I am still here. And as you will recall you were wondering why I was asking why we would be trying to move from operating a balance of payments deficit and I had pointed out that was not my point. I was highlighting that Brexit puts at risk the parts of the economy namely Financial services, tech, science and higher education that most enable us to compete in the global economy, indeed as industry sectors they have balance of payments surpluses, and all are heavily dependent on the benefit of EU membership. If they are damaged by Brexit, and actually in the tech and science sectors they are already unambiguously damaged, whilst the financial sector is not exactly sailing along regardless even without the risk of losing the EU passport, then the UK balance of payments will worsen considerably. So to repeat, as I have several times, what are you proposing will enable us to trade with the rest of the world after Brexit, how is the UK going to make money? . I am really interested in the answer as it will help my family to make career choices.

By the way another with a final salary pension but also someone who was actually present when the FD decided to take the pension holiday that resulted in the current massive deficit. Does anyone really think even their final salary pension is safe if unscrupulous businessmen, or indeed a desperate government in difficult economic times decide to change the playing field? Enough pensioners will tell you of such experiences already. To be honest as one of the last people to have joined the fund I have for a long time assumed I won't recieve what the was promised.