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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
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iwanttoridemybicycle · 24/10/2016 11:07

Ken Clarke for PM bit fat chance of that as he's retiring soon isn't he.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 24/10/2016 11:10

Yes Phillip Hammond or Nick Clegg. Last chance saloon to save this sinking ship we are on. Definitely not Boris, Davis or Fox.

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 11:11

When Nicky Morgan got the Education Secretary position I remember a lot of unfavourable press about her (lack of) experience and new ideas, and her strong social conservatism.

iwanttoridemybicycle · 24/10/2016 11:12

But not bit

ManonLescaut · 24/10/2016 11:17

If May doesn't last, we may end up with Davis or Johnson...

iwanttoridemybicycle · 24/10/2016 11:22

God help us if we do. Although Boris is a not so secret remainer so who knows which way he would go.

SapphireStrange · 24/10/2016 11:26

Hammond.

Keir Starmer.

Clegg.

HesterThrale · 24/10/2016 11:29

Please not Nicky Morgan. She was awful in Education. However, I do slightly respect her for having the guts to speak out against her bosses about leaving the EU. But that could be a case of sour grapes....?

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2016 11:47

Sorry, trying to catch up on the weekends events.

If May goes, we will NOT end up with Davis and I think we are unlikely to end up with Johnson regardless of what the betting odds suggest.

Why? Simple reason - The Tory Party Leader Election rules.
MPs nominate and select two candidates to go to the wider membership. If the reason they are getting rid of May is because of poor leadership and indecisiveness and support for the Single Market then Davis and Johnson are also tarred by those same reasons.

The numbers are such that there is enough opposition within Tory MPs to a Hard Brexit that went it came to the point where they were getting from three to the final two, there probably would be enough to shut out the hard liners. This is why Johnson perhaps is trying to blur the lines on this but I don't think Tory MPs will buy it.

Who do I think has enough about them to steer the ship?

It shouldn't be about a single individual. It should be about a group of individuals who can work together and share a vision for what next and respect one of the group to be that leader.

So anyone who is good at consensus politics and doesn't have a reputation as a lone wolf or have a particular 'ego' would be a good start.

I still think Hammond, works on this score for the most part. I also agree that Starmer and Clegg probably also score well as unity/consensus candidates, though Starmer lacks experience and Clegg still has the ghost of austerity/broken promises. Clegg taking us out of Europe which he believes in would be an interesting prospect as he is a Liberal Democrat like Guy Verhofstadt. (Noting here that Guy Verhoftstadts vision for EU reform is a two tier EU system which possibly would appeal to many - possibly a majority of the UK public - as a reframed 'soft brexit' option).

I agree that there is a distinct lack of people who seem to have the profile / experience that might be able to pull it off though. But part of the question is whether pulling it off is even possible anyway.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 24/10/2016 12:09

I don't think Clegg could risk being part of a group which took us out of Europe. That would be one broken promise too many.

Motheroffourdragons · 24/10/2016 12:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

whatwouldrondo · 24/10/2016 12:34

I'm not posting a link for obvious reasons but in an interesting example of post truth tabloid reporting the Daily Mail has posted a link to try and discredit the story about the banks plans to move out some of their departments. First it highlights that the spokesman quoted was formerly a journalist who has worked for the BBC (which presumably they regard as shorthand for not to be believed) Then it goes on to quote "high street banks" who are clearly commenting on their UK high street operations and their strategies towards that market. Apparently it makes no difference to Santander that their owner is Spanish, they will still carry on as before. Of course they will, because they are exploiting a U.K. market.

So who is patronising and assuming stupidity amongst the leave vote now? The interesting thing is that the most rated comment is pointing that out, and that it is the global operations of the investment banks that will be affected and that their own employer has plans in place......

HesterThrale · 24/10/2016 12:35

m.sussex.ac.uk/eu/articles/reality-check

An interesting article, asserting that negotiations with the EU will be very one-sided: they won't feel time pressure like the UK does, to make a deal in 2 years. They could extend the time if they want, but then the other 3 freedoms (services, capital, labour) remain unresolved.

whatwouldrondo · 24/10/2016 12:36

The Daily Mail has posted an article not link. My editing is almost as bad as the Fails

whatwouldrondo · 24/10/2016 12:37

Hester I thought one of the most interesting points in the article was this

Business groups and officials have already started to identify the sectors in which they expect (hope) that investment will forsake the UK for continental Europe following Brexit – e.g. for Sweden, financial services, ICT, life sciences and environmental goods.

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 12:44

On the subject of post truth reporting, I get a collection of news articles on given subjects from a variety of sources at work every morning. On Friday the headlines - three one on top of the other - asserted that the FTSE had gone up, down and stayed the same, with interpretations accordingly. These all related to the same day and contained similarly contradictory assertions about the value of the pound.

prettybird · 24/10/2016 13:07

Theresa May at the meeting with the leaders of the devolved nations: "The final deal must work for all of the UK"

Is that her get-out of Brexit? Wink

Yes I know, wishful thinking Grin

HesterThrale · 24/10/2016 13:07

I agree, Whatwouldrondo, plus I thought it notable that Sweden has been re-orienting its foreign policy away from the UK and towards Germany, since AN EU REFERENDUM BECAME TORY POLICY.
Very prescient.

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 14:07

Well, you heard it here first folks - apparent leaving the EU will minimise uncertainty!
Technically you heard it second, actually, after the House of Commons.

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
Mistigri · 24/10/2016 14:17

This is a really interesting read, about British delusions of grandeur and the errors made by both sides:

In this [jingoistic] atmosphere it became very hard for Remainers to put forward the most powerful argument for the European pooling of sovereignty ... “Today Europeans make up 8 per cent of the world population—we will only represent 5 per cent in 2050. By then you will not see a single EU country among the top world economies.”

.... The case for European integration rests on the recognition of one’s own country’s growing irrelevance. But this simple insight remains a national taboo in Britain ... it seemed nearly impossible for most English politicians or pundits to say: look, seen from China or Brazil the difference between our country and Belgium is a rounding error; 0.87 per cent of world population versus 0.15 per cent.

Instead the public was fed one appeal to grandiosity after another, helped in no small part by wilful blindness in the media. Had English journalists fanned out across the continent in the months before Brexit they would have found out what the UK is only now slowly discovering: the EU is not an amorphous “block,” but a community of nations, each fighting its own corner. Do 450m EU citizens really want to be “led” by the UK—especially after the Iraq and Libya debacles? Why on earth would EU nations encourage their own Europhobes by giving the UK a sweet deal?

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/britain-narcissist-nation

Peregrina · 24/10/2016 14:29

It's now 4 months on. Art 50 hasn't been invoked yet, although TM has promised it by the end of March. But then Cameron promised it for 24th June. How likely do you think is May to keep her word? She is more stubborn than Cameron. On the other hand, she does a good line in rhetoric, not backed up by action.

How much further on are we, exactly?

prettybird · 24/10/2016 14:35

I suppose Davis can honestly say that he is going to establish the "freest possible [my bold] market in goods and services in the EU and the rest of the world" .....

Doesn't actually say that we will be part of any a free market Wink

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 15:00

Quietly weeping

Petronius16 · 24/10/2016 15:00

Some more thoughts.

Although I gave a link to the Janet Daley article, she's not someone I would take seriously. She writes a column for right wing readers who voted Leave.

Same feeling about Mail headlines. In contrast,

Anthony Browne, chief executive of the British Bankers Association, warned that international banks are already working on contingency plans ...” if our EU exit doesn't protect rules “related to financial services”. Daily Telegraph Business section 24 October 2016.

Moving on, here's a link to another article in the DT.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/23/how-margaret-thatchers-big-bang-could-protect-the-city-from-brex/

That's dated 23 October 2016, but it's paper version of 24th October changes the headline to, 'Will Big Bang end in Brexit – induced fizzle? A slightly different slant I suggest.

As for May, I think she will survive despite the big mistake of saying we will play a full part in the EU. Badly advised – much better to say how pleased she was to attend her first leaders' meeting and looking forward to discussing how we can all act to mutual benefit.

As has been pointed out, it's the Tory members who will ultimately decide who takes the job – I doubt they want her out. Another leadership election would tear the Tory Party apart even more and they won't want that.

As for David Davis taking back control – something we have at the moment. Yesterday a lorry in Gloucestershire (?) was found to have a family inside – obviously our officials in Calais and at Dover didn't check it. Some control.

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