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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
BestIsWest · 12/10/2016 19:40

Marking place, Thanks for the outstanding work Red.

I've never been able to take Redwood seriously since he was a fiasco as Secretary of State for Wales.

GreenandWhite · 12/10/2016 19:50

Will German firms such Aldi and Lidl be permitted to conduct business in case of a 'hard' Brexit?

Peregrina · 12/10/2016 20:06

Funnily enough, I wouldn't entirely disagree with Redwood there. I would say that only a smallish percentage of Remainers are what you might call Hard Remainers. It does seem as though he is in favour of the single market, as he should be, since he presumably signed up to the Tory Manifesto.

I enjoyed this pithy response from Keir Starmer:
John Redwood: I do hope that Labour is going set out how it would handle the negotiations.

Keir Starmer: I would happily swap places with the Secretary of State and play a part in the negotiations, but we are not in government—

PattyPenguin · 12/10/2016 20:14

Will European companies still permitted to own the majority of the train operating companies in the UK? What about Hinkley Point (French / Chinese)? Will EDF (Electricité de France) still have 12% of the UK electricity market?

And so on and so forth.

MirabelleTree · 12/10/2016 20:38

Thanks for clarifying the Redwood thing Red. I'm afraid I got a bit distracted by his hair at one point and lost focus.

Interesting conversation earlier with a member of my family living abroad and dependent on sterling exchange rate. He was firmly for Leave though didn't vote (asked me to vote Leave at one point) .At first he took the drop in sterling on the chin ('for the greater good ') but now at £800 a month poorer a month it is really biting.

Doesn't like what came out of the Tory Party Conference , not happy with May and is pretty incandescent with rage at any suggestion that we would be punished for leaving the EU. He's now decided it might be better to take a wait and see approach .Said this was such a great chance for the UK and May is screwing it up.

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 20:47

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/why-most-important-person-british-politics-marine-le-pen
Why the most important person in British Politics is Marine Le Pen

www.open-britain.co.uk/theresa_may_has_previously_supported_a_parliamentary_vote_on_the_government_s_negotiating_position_with_the_eu
Theresa May has previously supported a parliamentary vote on the government’s negotiating position with the EU

Michael Deacon ‏@MichaelPDeacon
Imagine if Cameron had tried that one in the referendum campaign. "If you vote Leave there will be NO MORE MARMITE OR BEN & JERRY'S"

I currently have two large full jars of marmite due to local supermarket closing and having a fire sale.
[smug]

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RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 21:04

I have a weird feeling that we will start hearing a few stories like that Mirabelle. As long as the blame is firmly on May's shoulders rather than blaming the EU that's great.

It makes you wonder if the EU were smart in letting the UK get on with things without pre negotiations just to show how inept our politicians are.

Things are going to get worse yet

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TheBathroomSink · 12/10/2016 21:09

I suspect that Redwood's constituents might describe their conversations slightly differently to him. I bet talking to him is like me talking to my 13 year old: what I say and what he hears are rarely related.

MirabelleTree · 12/10/2016 21:09

I thought twice about posting it as these threads are great at being factual but thought it might be of interest.We got onto immigration but that's not for this thread !

midlifecrash · 12/10/2016 21:09

I thought the boards would be full of talk about Unilever - not just marmite but HELLMANS and MAGNUMS - surely every other Chat thread is about these? There's a sandwich thread running right now. Has everyone gone to the supermarket?

QuintessentialShadow · 12/10/2016 21:11

And yet, calling another referendum after all this has come to light, is disrespecting democracy.

It is undemocratic to let people cast a vote again. What are they so scared of? A different result? That they are not in majority any more?

Why is it not democratic to state ones preference AGAIN? If all the brexiters are still brexiters, the result wont change! If people who did not vote the first time around get invoived now and vote, why is this wrong? Maybe there will still be a majority. Who knows. If some people change their minds, they have a voice again! Double democracy!

I would say it is democracy gone wrong when you can campaign with lies and fairytales, and the biggest propaganda machine wins. When truth and reason are not part of the democratic process, but fear and scaremongering is, then it is no longer really a democracy.

I have finished rambling now.

Kaija · 12/10/2016 21:15

Thank you, red. Brilliant work.

Figmentofmyimagination · 12/10/2016 21:26

We need some colossal marches, one after another after another - with 100,000s of participants, and this time with more politicians prepared to stand at the front. Marches are worth it, it seems to me, because of the strong visual message they send - especially beyond the uk. Peaceful marching can also help unite and empower us and if big enough, will underscore the undemocratic nature of our current government.

Peregrina · 12/10/2016 21:37

Marching didn't help us much with the Iraq war. Except we were able to say 'We told you so', when Chilcot reported.

SwedishEdith · 12/10/2016 21:47

Just posted this on the old thread. Anyway, I liked this Tweet

Rhiannon L CosslettVerified account
‏@rhiannonlucyc
Imagine if remain had won by tiny margin & the govt went for "hard remain" - Schengen, Euro, multilingual signage. People would go apeshit.

Maybe we'll start wishing we were in the Euro.

SwedishEdith · 12/10/2016 21:52

The Marmite and PG Tips shortages are likely to be more effective than a march. Maybe people will create their own Marmite recipes a la Leadsom's "innovative jams". Grin

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 22:00

Matthew Holehouse ‏@mattholehouse
Fascinating. Free trade in goods and services, regulatory equivalence and no free movement. Is Ukraine answer to the Brexit riddle?
www.policy-network.net/publications/6141/After-Brexit
Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Liechtenstein, Turkey now Ukraine? ? FFS, I might skip looking at this one seeing as I'm losing the will to live reading these things. Its there if someone else wants to.

mlexmarketinsight.com/editors-picks/uks-40-billion-euro-bill-eus-first-brexit-hurdle/
The UK has a £40bn unpaid bill to the EU.
And if the UK is prepared to pay its 40 billion euro bill, or commit to continued payments into some EU programs, it could win some leverage in exit negotiations.

Spending under the EU’s seven-year budget is pushed to its upper limits, with the migration crisis and terrorism producing lengthy bills. The hard truth is: Brussels needs the money and the UK is one of the largest net contributors to the EU budget.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37576654
BBC on the a50 case starting tomorrow.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/tories-brink-civil-war-brexit-debate/
Tories on the brink of civil war (from the usually conservative leaning spectator).

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/10/theresa-may-s-hard-brexit-will-be-softer-it-looks
Theresa May’s “hard Brexit” will be softer than it looks

Theresa May, albeit quietly, has already served notice of compromises to come. “It will require some give and take,” she warned of the negotiation in her first Conservative conference address. Rather than the vanquished Remainers, it is the Leavers, forever poised to cry “betrayal”, who pose the greatest threat to May. By embracing hard Brexit, she has bought valuable trust and goodwill. Only in time will her strategy become clear to all. May has gone out hard to better soften later.

politicalscrapbook.net/2016/10/former-monster-raving-loony-lord-jug-is-running-for-ukip-leader/
Former monster raving loony lord jug is running for UKIP Leader.
Lord Jug wants to move UKIP away from the legacy of Nigel Farage, who hecalls a “fruitcake”.

and my final post of the day is this
Graham Bishop ‏@gbish
Somebody might need to sit down and explain to UKG the difference.

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
OP posts:
prettybird · 12/10/2016 22:26

I do find it unsurprising interesting how Theresa May has gone from "I have already said that I won't be triggering Article 50 until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations - I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger Article 50." following her first meeting with Nicola Sturgeon......to saying they'll "consult" Scotland (and NI).......to saying they'll listen to what they have to say......to announcing at the Conservative Party Conference more important than Parliament Hmm when she would be triggering A50.......to Davis saying when he was being questioned in Parliament that the British people had instructed it to Leave the EU Angry

That truly means any pretence at the "Union" is over, as with 10 times the population of the other parts of the UK, the English will always instruct the other parts over what they can (or can't) do Sad

FUKD indeed.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/10/2016 22:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/10/2016 22:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheNorthRemembers · 12/10/2016 22:30

A huge thank you from me to, too Flowers

Off to check cupboard...

AmberEars · 12/10/2016 22:33

Place marking

mathanxiety · 13/10/2016 05:44

Former monster raving loony lord jug is running for UKIP Leader.

A refreshing change then. Hmm

Mistigri · 13/10/2016 06:35

RTB thanks for all your updates.

Like the Trump campaign, Brexit really is the gift that keeps on giving. Yesterday might have been the best day yet, what with marmitegate and the utterly clueless Davis in the HoC.

More seriously, delighted to see some heavyweight opposition and some proper debate at last.

Fruitboxjury · 13/10/2016 07:03

Thanks for this Red, I'm fascinated to see how the play between law and politics will now pan out.

Personally I think it's imperative for the High Court not to sit on the fence with this one, and to firmly establish that politics is governed by law, not by popular (not even majority) vote.

I also agree with quintessential, in the face of so much more information and clear national and global concern at how the result of the vote is being interpreted by a government who have no electoral mandate to be making these decisions, the only reason I can think of that so many hard leavers are fighting either a parliamentary vote, second referendum or possibly even GE is that they know the outcome would now be to stay in the EU.

So given that it's becoming ever clearer that under current terms, the majority of the country would probably be against the changes, isn't it undemocratic not to acknowledge the rising tide of opposition to the reality of Brexit?

After all, we have GE every 5 years because objective law recognises that things change, changes impact people, and people change their minds on how they believe the country should be led. So how is it possible that under the same democracy we should now be bulldozing ahead with a change that is irreversible and would no longer achieve the popular vote that the implied decision did just three months ago?!