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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Thread gallery
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CeciledeVolanges · 23/10/2016 19:11

Sorry pretty , I should have linked myself.

Mistigri · 23/10/2016 19:25

Have we discussed this yet? Article on divisions and discord in May's government.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/23/tories-cutting-each-others-throats-on-theresa-mays-leaking-ship?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I briefly looked at the comments earlier and someone suggested that she'll be gone in 6 months ... And that Hammond will be front runner to replace her. It's an interesting thought.

Peregrina · 23/10/2016 19:49

I was tempted to say that I hope May will be gone, but it's definitely a case of be careful what you wish for. I wasn't sorry to see the back of Cameron, but didn't think we could get anyone worse. I was wrong.

prettybird · 23/10/2016 20:37

Cecile - you weren't the one complaining that we weren't commenting on it Hmm

Figmentofmyimagination · 23/10/2016 21:05

Desperate misleading headline alert - very funny (in a black humour sort of a way) to see the telegraph scrabbling around for a positive spin - www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/23/how-margaret-thatchers-big-bang-could-protect-the-city-from-brex/

Err how can thatcher's Big Bang protect us - it happened 30 years ago .... It's well established ... Err that's it.

Mistigri · 23/10/2016 21:08

Ah, the Telegraph using Thatcher as catnip for elderly soft-leave readers Grin

jaws5 · 23/10/2016 21:32

Thanks all for the links, this is my marked place when I have 10m.! Flowers

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2016 21:34

May survive six months? I confess I'm also doubtful but we shall see. Hammond would be steady ship. Johnson wouldn't get vote of MPs now I suspect. Osborne definitely in the mix as well. This week is going to be a rollercoaster I suspect.

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SwedishEdith · 23/10/2016 22:17

Hammond would be steady ship

We said that about May - considered her to be the grown-up. Only consolation with Hammond is that he's definitely pro-Remain.

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2016 22:59

The markets like Hammond...

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RedToothBrush · 23/10/2016 23:17

[http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-been-battered-brexit-storms-9112601]
Wow this is a devastating attack on May and her credibility. I can't recall something as vicious as this where the pm has eventually survived this level of criticism. The mirror is pro labour and pro remain but even with that considered, it's STRONG.

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RedToothBrush · 23/10/2016 23:19

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-been-battered-brexit-storms-9112601

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CeciledeVolanges · 23/10/2016 23:45

Swedish really?!

Peregrina · 23/10/2016 23:51

It's interesting how the Mirror article instances
Clement Attlee, Harold Wilson, Tony Blair, Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher.

All of these people had chance to learn the job of being leader before being plunged into a complex situation like Brexit. E.g. Attlee had been Labour leader for 4 years before the War started and then became deputy PM in the wartime coalition, so was experienced when taking office as PM in 1945.

Thatcher became leader in 1975, so again had some leadership experience under her belt, whilst in Opposition. She was then 'lucky' with the Falklands. Didn't Napoleon say something about wanting his Generals to be lucky?

But May - no leadership experience, no chance to learn the ropes whilst not in the spotlight. One of the most complex negotiations since the War. It would take a very able person to deal with this, and I am not sure that she will rise to the challenge. Would Hammond? Is Osborn too closely associated with Cameron and therefore tainted?

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2016 00:01

"Swedish really?!" - really what, Cecile?

Peregrina - I don't think anyone is equipped to deal with it. I don't see why it's not a cross-party issue, tbh. Leave/Remain wasn't debated along party lines so why does Brexit need to be progressed/dealt with by one party?

TheBathroomSink · 24/10/2016 02:17

Swedish as far as I can see, it's only the snp and the various ni parties who have made any attempt to get involved. I think the trade unions said they want to be but I can't recall any official labour position on wanting to be a part of it.

HesterThrale · 24/10/2016 06:32

Ouch.
We'll never get back in. Elevated sense of our own greatness. Some in the EU will breathe a sigh of relief when we're gone. And we'll be left powerless under the most extreme vagaries of our own government and media, with no outside influence left to temper it.
Sorry, feel a bit hopeless today.

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 07:10

Sorry Swedish, that "we" considered Theresa May to be the grownup!

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 24/10/2016 07:17

We did Cecile, on the threads here.

Remember Andrea Leadsom and the relief after she left the leadership race?
TM did seem like a grownup and a safeer pair of hand them.

LurkingHusband · 24/10/2016 09:29

There is a school of thought that destiny is slowly punishing us Hmm

Blair was greeted liker a messiah in 1997 - look how that ended.
Brown was cheered on with great hopes in 2007 - again look how that ended.
At least David Cameron was a great fresh hope ... and look how that ended.
And almost all the smart money was hoping that it would be May that became PM.

If ever there was proof to be careful what you wish for ....

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 09:55

That is entirely fair, she was the grownup compared to Andrea Leadsom. For me personally, however, it lasted until she said "Brexit means Brexit" and appointed Boris Johnson and Liam Fox to do things, also when it became clear that her leadership style was to keep all the big decisions to herself, I think it is a bit juvenile not to be a team player and not to be able to delegate things. Not that there are many better candidates out there. I just think there is a difference between "relatively safe" and "actually safe".

lalalonglegs · 24/10/2016 09:59

May seems to be trying to shore up a bit of support by offering some nebulous "direct line" to David Davis for the three devolved leaders to share their thoughts on Brexit. I'm not sure they are going to be awfully impressed by that too-little-too-late approach. And David Davis, not exactly a sympathetic ear.

lalalonglegs · 24/10/2016 10:01

Can we have a straw poll on whom we would like to see take over from TM (and whom we would like to see appointed in her successor's cabinet) in a Fantasy Politics League?

I have to be honest, I'm struggling to think of anyone for PM... but can I have Ken Clarke as Brexit minister?

Peregrina · 24/10/2016 11:05

An hour since the previous post, and nothing posted. Says it all as to the quality of politicians - I couldn't think of anyone who would make a good PM. I think Osborne will try his luck at some stage. Nicky Morgan is also a possibility.

CeciledeVolanges · 24/10/2016 11:06

Caroline Lucas?

Back in the cold hard real world, Philip Hammond seems the least worst likely option. I would like Anna Soubry as Lord Chancellor and Ken Clarke, as you say.
Or Nick Clegg. He would do fine.