Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 21/10/2016 17:03

Principled enough to resign when election promises his party made won't be honoured.
How many MPs have done that?

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 17:13

Tiggy the remain/leave data I have is indeed from the Chris Hanretty data mentioned in that article. (There is an updated version).

I am trying to cross reference that with previous results and looking for particular types of constituency that seem to have had a strong LD reaction in by-elections as there seems to be a bit of a pattern developing.

I also want to have a look at strong Kipper ones and Labour's metropolitan performance in due course.

However the LD one is most interesting though as they are the only party with a net gain of council by election seats since the referendum but its not showing up on national polling at all - its just 'odd'. Of course that's part of the problem with our parliamentary system - it doesn't reflect constituency boundaries.

Whilst I know that there is often a difference between national and local voting intention and turnout plays a party, if there is a snap election and turnout does play a part it could make a difference.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 17:24

Principled enough to resign when election promises his party made won't be honoured.
How many MPs have done that?

But 350million pound buses stick in the mind more.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 21/10/2016 17:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 17:46

I saw another suggestion for a model we could follow today, in the letters page of the DT - Monaco. Apparently has a free trade agreement and no free movement of people.

Not that I can find any evidence of what Monaco might trade other than bags full of former Russian cash and Formula 1 drivers (and it makes sense for Monaco to have no free movement of people given that Monaco is 2kmsq, about the same size as Falmouth).

Said letter writer also offered the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Liechtenstein and San Marino as examples, and yet apparently failed to notice what they all have in common.

PattyPenguin · 21/10/2016 18:58

Bathroom do you not find that the stupid actually does burn sometimes?

whatwouldrondo · 21/10/2016 19:31

Red Manon Nobody who saw him campaign against Susan Kramer, the previous Libdem MP can have been surprised at the mayoral campaign but it was very much in the spirit of the Eton boys debating society, David Cameron was prone to similar behaviour as well obviously as our Boris. However I am not sure he is actually that bright, so unlike David Cameron and Boris, he doesn't think before going into full adversarial mud slinging mode. I don't suppose he was done any favours by his campaign team but I would fully expect Trump like scenes of talking over , interrupting and trying to shout down the opposing female candidate(s). If he does that along with his Brexit stance it will alienate Richmond Park voters.

However he does feel strongly about environmental issues and was campaigning on them long before he entered parliamentary politics so I am not sure his position is entirely one of self interest or even of loyalty to his constituents. This for him will be a matter of principle, both his opposition to putting more planes in the air and the promise he made. In fact I seem to recall he was lured into parliament by the promise of a greener Conservative party that would never say yes to Heathrow expansion, and I am quite sure it helped him gain and hold the seat.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 19:38

patty - yes. I also miss the DT comments section, which was mostly frequented by the people even the editor found too bonkers for publication.

Mistigri · 21/10/2016 19:52

bathroom they're all BTL at the grauniad these days, when they open comments on an article on immigration. I've pretty much stopped using the guardian website as a result.

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 20:15

BTL? Buy to Let? Or something else? I can't bear to read the Graun's comments either. I only buy the paper these days for the puzzles on the back page. [Shallow, I know.]

Kaija · 21/10/2016 20:25

Below the line

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 20:32

Keith Taylor MEP ‏@GreenKeithMEP
'I can't refute that claim,' says @andrealeadsom when asked whether food prices will increase by 27% post-#Brexit
www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/1f8645a0-e722-4855-8fa3-cc5a42e6ee88 Video of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee
Wednesday 19 October 2016

Sahil Kapur ‏@sahilkapur
If true, hardest hit will be the working class voters who powered Brexit to victory.

This makes my blood boil.

OP posts:
BoulevardOfBrokenSleep · 21/10/2016 21:37

Just wanted to comment on the Witney result, it's quite interesting - there's a hell of a lot of Conservative votes going over to the Lib Dems there. Given it's a 'pig in a blue rosette' seat, the results are quite surprising.

Word on the canvassing street is they're Cameron-style 'compassionate conservatives' who are unhappy about Theresa's post-truth, post-democracy direction. Plus the turnout shows there's a lot of Cons who didn't convert, but simply didn't vote at all.

Would be very interesting if repeated at a general election.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 21:40

misti and pere - I think some of them are but not all. A lot of them are on Disqus and Breitart (unsurprisingly) but the tone is different there. On the DT everyone had either gone to a top grammar which necessitated walking 7 miles a day in three feet of snow all winter, or public school, followed by National Service and then had a distinguished career in the Civil Service (not local, of course), been a Captain of Industry, worked in the City before they let anyone (especially women) in, or been a senior teacher at a public school.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 21:41

Guardian comments are their own special kind of hell, of course!

Mistigri · 21/10/2016 22:02

bathroom guardian comment system has been destroyed by other papers erecting paywalls over the last few years (and many of them disabling commenting entirely). I remember a time when I used to enjoy reading the BTL comments, especially on articles about American politics: often the comments were far more incisive than the article itself. These days you need brain bleach if you accidentally venture BTL...

Financial Times now has the only comments section worth reading. Some trolls and know-nothings, but they quickly get shredded (or reach their free article limit) and so discussions do not easily get derailed.

FionaJT · 21/10/2016 22:09

Red I live in North Somerset, and have never forgotten Liam Fox coming into our 6th form to answer questions as the new Tory candidate before the 1992 election and saying he thought we should be using nuclear bombs against Saddam Hussein. I've recently joined the Lib Dems (usually vote for them anyway) and will be doing my utmost to get rid of Fox when the time comes.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 21/10/2016 22:09

Another regular lurker popping up to say thank you to Red and all you lovely posters!

I've followed these threads since the beginning and they have been immensely helpful in these difficult times.

GloriaGaynor · 21/10/2016 22:16

I had to explain to a young woman who wrote a piece on rape for Guardian comment is free that the vast majority of misogynist cunts piling in weren't Guardian readers but only there for shit and giggles.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 22:30

The Guardian do like to print some appalling click-bait, though. Sometimes they are actively looking for the trolls and incoherent ranters, just to get the page views up.

I grew up in NSomerset, with the shining example of political probity Jeffrey Archer as the 'go to' for prize givings and such. Don't live there now, but my parents do, and the current local MP is Mr TalkTalk, and is getting away with building a very dodgy swimming pool in his garden. My local MP on the other hand has still not replied to my email sent the day after the referendum (and I'm not sure he's been seen since, either).

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 22:45

Yep the FT comments are still civilised.

This being retweeted today. I hope May has been saving those new press clippings as they will make all the difference this time round.

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Election analyst and gambler who's been running his award winning blog since 2004 has some interesting comments re: Witney. Couple of graphs here:
www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/21/yes-witney-saw-a-sharp-decline-in-turnout-compared-with-ge2015-but-it-impacted-on-the-parties-differently/

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
@MattSingh_ A vote collapse of 15% is NOT "about par for a party on 47% in polls. Go look at historical detail. There is nothing comparable

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB
via @JohnRentoul LAB apparently has 1,200 members in Witney so on face of it an abundance of activists. How come it only got 5,765 votes?

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
OP posts:
HesterThrale · 22/10/2016 08:06

I just looked at the Tory manifesto 2015, and I'm struck by how the tone and the language used is very much assuming that we'd still be in the EU, but reforming it from within.

It seems that some things they promised in their list, we already had, and others were impossible to achieve.
It says 'safeguard British interest in the single market.' I know we've discussed this before, but they don't have a mandate to take us out of the SM. Page 72:

s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/manifesto2015/ConservativeManifesto2015.pdf

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
Peregrina · 22/10/2016 09:21

Some Labour voters were voting tactically, and said so. Died in the wool Tory voters stayed away.

tiggytape · 22/10/2016 10:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri · 22/10/2016 11:26

But this may not really matter tiggytape if immigration numbers fall naturally due to weak sterling, slow or negative real wage growth (due to inflation) and hostile attitudes to foreigners. If immigration falls, and the media narrative turns to inflation as the big bad wolf of british politics, then shifts in public opinion might make this a less pressing political concern.