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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 22:45

Survey I mentioned is on politicalbetting.com website. Question asked if a new stop brexit party was formed for an early election made up of lib Dems, lab and cons and independents who would you vote for (the other options were con, lab, ukip, other - note no lib Dems on their own). It put cons on 37 per cent and stop brexit on 24. Was for England and Wales only. Potentially significant.

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RedToothBrush · 22/10/2016 22:47

Sorry cons 34. Not 37.

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RedToothBrush · 23/10/2016 00:24

Tax from the city brings in a third of the cost of running the NHS. They are about to bugger off due brexit according to the Sunday papers.

Can we stick that on the side of a bus?

Bye bye NHS if that happens.

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prettybird · 23/10/2016 00:34

....and do you think the Conservatives would be unhappy at having an excuse to kill off the NHS due to lack of resources? Hmm

More money making opportunities for their cronies Sad

long term ulterior motives Angry

BoredofBrexit · 23/10/2016 06:24

Wonder if yesterdays's Janet Daley article in the Telegraph (Politicians must learn the difference between free trade and...) will get a mention on this thread......or not....

CeciledeVolanges · 23/10/2016 06:24

I think it is time we (younger people) just got over the lib dem tuition fees thing. The Conservatives are busy breaking their manifesto promises in a much, much more egregious way and they have no excuse about being in coalition as the lib dems did. They also multiplied tuition fees by 3 for some universities and are in the process of abolishing maintenance grants. Nobody keeps all their manifesto promises, particularly not when they go into coalition with the devil

CeciledeVolanges · 23/10/2016 06:34

Bored, I've just read that article (and she takes a little while to get to the point, doesn't she?) she is falsely blaming the EU for problems which it did not cause (globalisation, cheap labour, migration) and asserting that leaving the EU will allow us to end migration for purposes of cheap labour when in fact proponents of Brexit like Daniel Hannah and Gisela Stuart admit it is much more likely to go up than down. She also complains about free trade and the domination of big corporations, then complains about TTIP and CETA failing as if they aren't purely mechanisms to promote the interests of big business. There you go, I would say that is a mention, and at 6:30 on a Sunday!

Peregrina · 23/10/2016 09:00

I think it's time for the LibDems to get over the tuition fees issue and start concentrating on what they did well, which I think they are doing. There were plenty of young people out campaigning for them in Witney.

Funnily enough, 4 members of my family are never going to vote LibDem again they say, citing the tuition fees issue, and three of them left university some years ago, and the 4th never went, so it's not an issue which affected them. Destruction of the economy and stopping easy free movement of labour is something which will affect them very much.

prettybird · 23/10/2016 09:28

The "form" on these threads is to provide a link to articles you find interesting. People will then look at them and comment on or tear to shreds the content.

Figmentofmyimagination · 23/10/2016 09:41

Janet Daley's opinion pieces are the kind of writing that explains why the telegraph scrapped its comments section.

SapphireStrange · 23/10/2016 12:25

I think it is time we (younger people) just got over the lib dem tuition fees thing.

I agree. I'm so over it. It was a coalition and, for better or worse, things can and do get lost in a coalition.

Could someone possibly link to Janet Daley?

maizieD · 23/10/2016 12:47

Here's a link to Janet Daley:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/22/politicians-must-grasp-the-difference-between-free-market-and-co/

She seems a bit confused to me. On the one hand she's saying that free movement of people is a euphemism for transporting cheap labour in one paragraph while accusing 'the West' of stealing the brightest and best from Eastern European countries in the next. Another manifestation of Schroedinger's Immigrant?

And yes, a bit confused about TTP and Corporate domination too..

smallfox2002 · 23/10/2016 12:58

I've read it.

Much of it is factually incorrect:

"In the developing world, free-market economics and the lowering of trade restrictions have wrought miracles, bringing whole swathes of Africa and Asia out of poverty. "

Not true. Many, if not most, developing countries have preferential trade agreement with other countries or are members of trading blocs.

Further it tries to blame immigration for causing "unrest" which might be true, but it doesn't mean we should pander to the demands of xenophobia.

In turn it goes on to say that the EU favours big business over small business ( back to the employment laws there then) , but negates to say that more big business is likely once we leave the EU but with fewer restraint placed on them.

Its a load of crap essentially.

I

Petronius16 · 23/10/2016 12:58

I wonder how many reluctant remainers (and leavers for that matter) will become more passionate remainers as they see the true consequences start to be revealed and also feel themselves at odds with the prevailing small minded little England approach of May and co.

Puts hand up. Oh yes, I've never been a fan of the EU – voted no is 1975. But when it came to it and saw what might happen I voted Remain. Every day I believe I did the right thing and that feeling just gets stronger. Today's headlines in more than one paper about the City moving abroad, adds to that feeling.

It's not the big money guys I worry about but all the small guys – hairdressers, cafés, restaurants, taxi drivers, etc., who would be affected if there are no banks filling the office blocks.

As for May's approach to negotiating with the EU - I despair.

smallfox2002 · 23/10/2016 13:10

The city point is a good one. Only about 20% of the cities exports go to the EU. But if these jobs go then there will be a negative multiplier of it. There will be far many more jobs reliant on these city ones, within the banks themselves there may be a need for less HR people, less admin etc.

But it will be nothing compared to what will happen if it turns out this week that Nissan won't be building the QashQai in Sunderland.

Peregrina · 23/10/2016 13:17

Or if May has bribed Nissan to stay in Sunderland then a few more firms will be queuing up for the same. This could get expensive and will come out of the £350 million pot which was supposed to be going to the NHS.

smallfox2002 · 23/10/2016 13:31

This is the problem with May and Sunderland. If she has made promises, one the EU could say that she's giving advantages through government aid and then whack a great big tariff on Nissan's Sunderland products OR the other manufacturers, and whole swathes of other industry will be sticking their hands out too.

If Nissan stays, I'd suspect that this indicates a fairly easy Brexit, if it goes the tide may start turning the other way and this populist movement will crumble.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 23/10/2016 13:33

I can't see how they can stay, I think it will be a slow exit for Nissan, but an exit nevertheless. They have been massively ripped off and who likes that?

smallfox2002 · 23/10/2016 13:42

Starting with the QashQai not getting built there.

And no I won't take any pleasure in being right, but it will confirm my Walrus and the Carpenter theory.

Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 14:09

I totally agree the Nissan decision is going to be a huge milestone. I've said on other threads I have a more sinister theory on what is happening in the background but their decision is going to be very telling.

I think they are going to decide not to produce the Qashqai here - there aren't enough certainties however, if they do opt to stay then there's huge questions over what price the UK is going to have to pay to retain these businesses and why it is better to do that than just say in the EU in the first place.

Unicornsarelovely · 23/10/2016 17:35

I found this very depressing article earlier www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/10/18/brexit-death-of-british-business/ about the loss of manufacturing through the 1980s and 1990s and now the potential loss of banks as well.

It is worth noting that it was published before the banks announced today that they're looking at other locations.

LurkingHusband · 23/10/2016 18:23

Or if May has bribed Nissan to stay in Sunderland then a few more firms will be queuing up for the same. This could get expensive and will come out of the £350 million pot which was supposed to be going to the NHS.

In a country claiming "austerity", there just isn't enough money - even if it had the pre-Brexit value, let alone now. No matter how much we print.

Peregrina · 23/10/2016 19:02

I agree,unicorns that article is completely depressing, and May with her obsession with getting immigration down, seems totally blind to what is happening.

CeciledeVolanges · 23/10/2016 19:10

Thanks everyone who commented on Janet Daley much more competently than I did ;) incidentally my DP, a PhD student, is a member of the Lib Dems and stayed loyal to them, while my mother has sworn never to vote for them again.