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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Thread gallery
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jaws5 · 20/10/2016 22:28

Cecile do you mean they signed voluntarily and were even involved in the drafting of those thousands of treaties, without a gun to their head held by evil EU? Because that's how it is being portrayed even now with people choosing to believe it.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 22:54

Do you remember how the sun went after Charles Kennedy for his opposition to the gulf war? They just did the same about Gary lineker over refugee children. Their front page tomorrow is calling for him to be sacked for not 'being neutral' as a BBC employee.

History repeats. This country disgusts me. The only consolation is that history will view you favourably if the sun launches such a campaign on you.

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Peregrina · 20/10/2016 23:07

The only consolation is that history will view you favourably if the sun launches such a campaign on you.

We have to remember the Hillsborough Campaign and how the families were eventually vindicated. The Sun is still shunned on Merseyside. So keep up the Hillsborough spirit people.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:17

yanis v says he thinks brexit dept staffed by people with v low IQ.

Conrad blacks talks about bananas and empire.

Ken Clarke talks sense.

Lisa Duffy town councillor does not. And says we are not moving fast enough.

Gary on the front row thinks his kids have been brainwashed by EU propaganda.

Brexit is going to destroy us.

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RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:26

God Qt is thoroughly depressing. The lack of knowledge is staggering.

yanis and Ken might be the only two in the room who do.

There are people in the audience who look like they might start a fight with them, if given half the chance.

We are so fucked. We are soooooooo fucked.

Conrad black is now spouting about the UK being the most moral authority in Europe.

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ToujeoQueen · 20/10/2016 23:36

Yep QT is very depressing, wtf is Conrad Black on? Hmm

CeciledeVolanges · 20/10/2016 23:38

jaws indeed I do! Some of them were even signed before 1972!

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:39

Can we swap Lisa Duffy and Conrad black for some refugees please?

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HesterThrale · 20/10/2016 23:41

On QT, Conrad Black said he thinks the EU will come to its senses before it's too late and offer the UK a better deal to keep them in.
Hmmm. Total misunderstanding of the process; the motivations and self-preservation drive of the EU; and their pre-existing level of pissed-offness with the U.K.

ToujeoQueen · 20/10/2016 23:42

Lisa Duffy is vile.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:44

Yanis states the obvious once again. Sheer bewilderment at what the fuck is going on in the minds of the UK.

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Kaija · 20/10/2016 23:45

Oh red, yes please.

I can't take anything in that Lisa Duffy is saying because all I can think of is Matt Lucas as Marjorie Dawes from Fat Fighters in Little Britain.

Is that wrong of me?

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:46

LDS saying turn out v low in blue bits of witney. As low as 17 per cent.

I still don't think LDS will win but that in itself is shocking

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Lovewhereilive · 20/10/2016 23:46

Yannis said exactly what I have been thinking re TM turning from a remainer to a hard brexiter. She must be playing a game.

Red, please don't stop these posts. I don't post very often am reading them every day. Thank you.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:50

Overall turnout in witney 47 per cent.

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RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:55

Kaija that is mean but unfortunately the likeliness is so uncanny, it's perfectly fair.

I got the impression that remainers in the audience to night felt too intimated to even clap at times. It was awful to watch.

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RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 23:58

Cons gain stood from ukip. Lib Dems gain St Mary's east riding from Cons. That's a big swing. I looked at the figures earlier and didn't think that would happen in the latter one.

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jaws5 · 21/10/2016 00:03

I found QT extremely distressing to watch. The behaviour of many in that audience goes from staggeringly ignorant and thick, incapable of putting two ideas together, to the aggressive and threatening. This is very, very bad.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 00:06

Expecting Batley & Spen to declare between 0100hrs and 0200hrs; Witney between 0200hrs and 0400hrs.
Batley and Spen, turnout: 25.8%

Blaengwrach (Neath Port Talbot) result:
PC: 48.0% (+3.6)
LAB: 30.5% (-25.1)
IND: 12.4% (+12.4)
UKIP: 8.3% (+8.3)
CON: 0.9% (+0.9)
PC gain from Lab

St Mary's (E. Riding of Yorks.):
LD: 40.0% (+28.7)
CON: 25.3% (-3.2)
LAB: 18.4% (+0.6)
BEV: 9.7% (-1.2)
IND: 3.8% (+3.8)
UKIP: 2.7% (-10.3)

LD gain from CON

Central Sandhurst (Bracknell Forest) result:
CON: 69.3% (+6.3)
LAB: 30.7% (+10.5)
LDem didn't stand this time round.

Con hold

Clarence (St Albans) result:
LDEM: 56.9% (+6.0)
CON: 24.1% (+2.9)
LAB: 12.0% (-5.2)
GRN: 6.1% (-3.7)
UKIP: 1.0% (+1.0)

Labour HOLD Central (Middlesbrough).

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SwedishEdith · 21/10/2016 00:10

Some pretty scary people in that QT audience - and on the panel. But I still remain hopeful about people as, despite the hostile atmosphere, some were still outspoken about UKIP's toxicity.

Only recently discovered Gary Lineker on Twitter - he's great.

SummerLightning · 21/10/2016 00:12

Oh dear, I cannot even watch Question Time any more. Last week's was awful.

We are indeed fucked.

For light relief, have you seen fascinating Aida's song?

SwedishEdith · 21/10/2016 00:15

CON gain from UKIP in Kent

Kippers don't need UKIP any more.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 00:20

Medway (Strood South) result:
CON: 38.4% (+3.4)
LAB: 27.7% (+3.4)
UKIP: 25.5% (-13.2)
GRN: 3.9% (+3.9)
LDEM: 3.3% (+3.3)
EDEM: 1.2% (+1.2)

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Kaija · 21/10/2016 00:22

Gary Lineker is indeed lovely. Perhaps the Sun will find that they've gone too far this time (hopeful)

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 00:30

No, they just got license by the regulator to be racist after c4 Nice ruling. Its going to get worse.

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