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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

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Thread gallery
21
Kaija · 21/10/2016 00:31

Christ.

mathanxiety · 21/10/2016 02:55

Bored -
Time will tell. I hope TM steers a steady course out and that many of us get behind her.

Her government is a shambles. They have not yet decided on the course to steer. This is why they are having such a hard time recruiting trade negotiators.

In the final analysis, she doesn't have to steer a 'steady course out'. All she has to do is make unreasonable demands for two years and then >poof< - the UK is out of the EU and facing post EU reality. It seems nothing less will satisfy many millions of voters.

mathanxiety · 21/10/2016 03:13

SwedishEdith, you are absolutely right.

If TM is playing a game here, trying to outflank UKIP for purely party political reasons, she is putting in a Oscar-worthy performance. It is also the performance of a political coward.

I personally do not believe she is playing a game of any sort here. I think this is the real TM.

HesterThrale · 21/10/2016 07:02

So if Labour had stood down at Witney and all the Labour voters had gone LibDem, that would've defeated the Tories. Only just. So, all very hypothetical.

But given that we now have a future where Labour is unelectable (due to SNP; boundary changes) and the Tories seem unassailable, what do people think about an 'Open Britain future', where in some constituencies candidates agree to stand down in order to give one centrist candidate a chance to increase the chances of an Opposition? We NEED an Opposition in the current situation. Desperate measures required.

merrymouse · 21/10/2016 07:08

"what do people think about an 'Open Britain future', where in some constituencies candidates agree to stand down in order to give one centrist candidate a chance to increase the chances of an Opposition?"

That would show a level of focus and organisation that would seem to be beyond the Labour party at the moment, even within their own party.

TheBathroomSink · 21/10/2016 07:09

hester - I think the new Labour members will never go for it because the lib dems will not be Labour enough for their liking. I also suspect that unless you can work it out on a local level without involving the leadership, you're on a hiding to nothing.

Motheroffourdragons · 21/10/2016 08:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

HesterThrale · 21/10/2016 08:36

I suspect you're right Merry and Bathroom. Although seeing Ed Miliband on The Agenda the other day collaborating with Anna Soubry, I had a flash of hope.

Is Corbyn allowing some MPs to get on with things he doesn't want to deal with?

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 08:52

Witney was the 10th safest Tory seat in the country. ConKip have over ten points lead in opinion polls yet their share of the vote went down. Regardless of whether that's a punishment vote and the fact they didn't win it was a good result for the lib Dems.

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RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 09:05

To be honest its not so much a question of standing down though. Lab and Lib Dem candidates rarely BOTH have a chance in a constituency. They favour one or the other in most cases. Focusing campaigning in areas you have the best chance of winning and most at risk of losing isn't necessarily a bad strategy.

Locally I know there are people who would be acceptable to either lib dems or labour due to fairly good relations. However Labour have imposed a candidate at the last two elections who no one likes (cos he's a bellend) including the local Labour party.

So election strategy planning seems to leave a lot to be desired.

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RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 10:16
Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
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lalalonglegs · 21/10/2016 10:19

Has anyone seen this Fintan O'Toole essay on Brexit's effects on Ireland (north and south)? It is sad and angry - with utter justification:

I’ve just read Craig Oliver’s gripping account of the whole referendum debacle from inside Downing Street. I note that the Daily Mail is mentioned 14 times and the Daily Telegraph 22. Game of Thrones, The Godfather and The X-Files all feature. Northern Ireland? Not once. The Republic of Ireland? Zilch.

but does offer a chink of hope:

The Irish government needs to forget protocol and set itself up explicitly as the champion of a soft, ambiguous and contingent Brexit that leaves open the possibility of a return ticket. Keeping Britain within the single market is a vital Irish national interest, and some of us are arrogant enough to suggest that it might be no less vital for Britain.

God, I hope Enda Kenny has the skill - and the will - to pull this off.

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 10:55

Is Enda Kenny regarded as a skilful politician? It's rapidly becoming clear that Theresa May most definitely isn't.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 11:00

Jamie Angus ‏@grvlx001
'It's a choice between stupid Brexit and more intelligent Brexit, not between Hard and Soft Brexit', Lord Hill #r4today

BBC Radio 4 Today ‏@BBCr4today
There is a surprisingly widely held view in Brussels that the UK might still stay in the EU, says former British commissioner Jonathan Hill

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/21/eu-leaders-gang-up-on-theresa-may-over-brexit-as-she-prepares-fo/
EU leaders gang up on Theresa May over Brexit as she prepares for talks with Jean-Claude Juncker

‘Gang Up’ rather ‘UK isolates itself’.

Keith Frankish ‏@keithfrankish
Maybe Britain needs to try Brexit for the same reason Greece needed to try Syriza - to rid itself of the belief that it would solve anything

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam

In Brussels, just been offered option to pay hotel room in £ or € by chip & pin. Rate of 0.94€ .... Receptionist started laughing

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/experts-like-carney-must-curb-their-arrogance-jkffvjlzm
Experts’ like Carney must curb their arrogance
Technocrats have wreaked all kinds of economic disaster across Europe with their mistakes. A little humility is needed
Says the ever humble Michael Gove

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/21/theresa-may-uk-centre-of-european-decision-making-until-brexit
May: UK will remain at centre of EU decision-making until Brexit

In a brief speech at the end of an EU dinner in Brussels, the prime minister said Britain wanted to continue to play a central role in meetings and decisions until it leaves the EU.

The speech angered fellow leaders, according to Manfred Weber, leader of the Christian Democrats in the European parliament. He said: “When somebody wants to leave a club, it is not normal that such a member wants to decide about the future of this club. That is really creating a lot of anger about the behaviour of the British government.

“If you want to leave please do so, but don’t decide for the European Union.”

I’ve read another report that says May did a 5 minute pitch after dinner which was met with a stony silence.

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SapphireStrange · 21/10/2016 11:03

There is a surprisingly widely held view in Brussels that the UK might still stay in the EU, says former British commissioner Jonathan Hill

That's interesting.

lalalonglegs · 21/10/2016 11:16

While I am delighted that TM's speech was met with stony silence, I am still cringing with vicarious shame that she tried to make these demands in the first place. The UK is just looking more and more deluded and unhinged. I think it's time for some kindly EU leaders to knock on No 10's door and perform some sort of intervention before we lose it entirely.

lalalonglegs · 21/10/2016 11:18

Interesting that they waited until the end of dinner - ie after all the important stuff had been done - to give TM her platform. I heard on R4 that she didn't get to talk until 1am by which time she must have known any sane person would have that they weren't really that interested in listening to her.

SapphireStrange · 21/10/2016 11:22

I think it's time for some kindly EU leaders to knock on No 10's door and perform some sort of intervention

I keep praying for that too. I imagine Angela Merkel coming along and being kind but firm.

RedToothBrush · 21/10/2016 11:33

Sam Coates of the Times @SamCoatesTimes Has this morning tweeted some reasons for and against a snap election.

Ten reason for a snap poll
1) An increasingly pessimistic view of parliamentary arithmetic is prompting fears of a commons defeat over Brexit linked legislation, with 20 to 30 Tory MPs saying they may vote against the government.
2) The position of other EU countries is seen to be hardening against giving Britain a good deal. EU countries are repeatedly refusing to agree to backdoor negotiations.
3) Delaying the choice of Heathrow until next year could be regarded as “clearing the decks” of difficult decisions.
4) Jeremy Corbyn may no longer be Labour leader in 2020 but will be next year.
5) Although the boundary review in 2018 would give the Tories more seats, there is no certainty that the Commons will pass it.
6) It takes away risk that Theresa May will have to agree a transitional deal for the years after Britain leaves, meaning a 2020 general election would have free movement rules still in place.
7) The negotiations will involve picking winners – and losers – and ministers are worried about doing that close to an election.
8) An election will give Mrs May her own mandate to negotiate as she wants and weakens the arguments of her critics.
9) Civil servants acknowledge a growing chance of losing the Article 50 court case, which could prompt an election.
10) There’s a window straight after Article 50 is triggered in March to hold an election when the EU will be working out its response and the French go to the polls.

Reasons against:
1) May has promised that Britain will not go to the polls until 2020 and she wants to be seen as a woman of her word.
2) Senior figures at No 10 think that the public is suffering from voting fatigue after the general election and referendum and this that its suffering from voter fatigue and this might produce unexpected results
[The Lib Dems have suggested that if they were able to get 19.6% swings like Witney in other areas against the Tories they could get as many as 26 seats nationally. A lot of the swing looks like low turnout]
3) There is a worry that the parliamentary trigger for an early election set down in the Fixed Term Parliament Act – May deliberately putting forward a vote of no confidence in her own government – has huge risks.[She possible could get parliament to repel the Act instead]

This article that he used to illustrate the arguments against also makes the note
However, suspicions remain that the decision not to hold a vote on the expansion of Heathrow this autumn was the first sign that No 10 might be clearing the decks just in case

This is really worth reflecting on. The case for no election, looking increasingly just like its down to making May being stubborn look like she keeps her word and the other two reasons might easily be taken out of her hands and the Heathrow issue has been moved.

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LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 11:33

May: UK will remain at centre of EU decision-making until Brexit

It was when I read this - today - that I realised I had fallen through the looking glass. I can only imagine the riposte being a chorus of raspberries from those delegates who were prepared to waste their time staying behind listening to anything the UK has to say.

Those of use who enjoy history - and who have had to read European history because it's all inextricably linked (what was it we would find carved on Mary Tudors heart ?) will be looking forward to an old-style 19th century Anglo-French diplomatic dust-up - in which the only winners can be the French Smile. Cancelled meetings, double-booked meetings. "Errors" in communications so delegate parties turn up at the wrong building (or, given how the EU works, the wrong country). We have all this to look forward to.

I can almost picture Hollande soothing a more anxious Merkel saying "pas de inquiétez ... nous savons comment faire les chose comme ci ... Il est dans notre sang"

(If nothing else, this Brexit debate has really brushed up my foreign typing Grin )

CeciledeVolanges · 21/10/2016 11:52

Why are we worrying about a snap election? What happened to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act?

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 11:53

A lot of the swing looks like low turnout
Indeed so, but ask yourself why so many Tory voters stayed at home? Cameron got in with a 7000 majority back in 1997 when there was the huge swing to Labour. That was what I would regard as the 'bedrock' Tory vote, those who would never vote any other way. The current incumbent got less than this - and yet May is apparently riding high in the polls.

LurkingHusband · 21/10/2016 11:57

What happened to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act?

It has provisions for early elections, if a certain majority of the HoC vote for it.

The starting equation would be something like:

"Following the Witney by-election, how many Tory MPs are there that would lose their seat if the drop in the Tory vote is repeated country wide ?".

If that number exceeds the number required to trigger a general election, then life may have just got more interesting.

Peregrina · 21/10/2016 12:04

The drop in Tory votes wouldn't of course be repeated country wide. The Lib Dems would not be able to put the same effort into contesting each seat. What they are hoping for is a steady drip, drip, and to regain those seats which were LibDem until 2010/2015. So Zak Goldsmith's seat is next on the list, assuming the Heathrow decision goes ahead and he does stand down.

FrackingWeekend · 21/10/2016 12:12

Witney conservatives may have stayed at home to show their annoyance at Cameron resigning.