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Brexit

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/10/2016 16:42

There is a plan.

It is not a very good one, but May says she has a plan.

As May declared a revolution and set out her vision for a Britain ‘open’ for free trade and hard working people she managed to further drive in the wedge of division into a society which needed measured and sensitive handling.

Her speech was met, with much derision and horror both here and abroad. Even UKIP voices say the Conservatives went too far.

Brexit began to take shape. It appeared hard and fast. Without the consent of parliament. It was to be run by the executive alone. As the ex-Polish Foreign Minister points out, the shape of it decided because it was viewed as the ‘easiest’ option. Not the one in the best interests of the country. Leaving the EU has become indistinguishable to the Single Market. We are told by Mr Davis that there is no down side to this.

Then something else began to happen and the plan is beginning to not look so clever…

The pound plunged.

Mr Hammond, who has seemed to have resisted the urge to take the hallucinatory drugs being handed out in vast quantities around the Cabinet Table, came out saying that we must consider the economic reality of Brexit.

It was followed by a leaked paper that put the cost of Hard Brexit at between £38bn and £66bn a year. Our EU membership cost £8bn last year. Where are those NHS buses now?

The government response? Oh that was George. He just made it up for ‘Project Fear’. Or something to that effect.

The government on the one hand were saying how great Brexit will be, yet were not prepared to make the case in parliament. The Times editorial came out as categorically for the Single Market. Even the Sun on Sunday editorial spoke up for the Single Market (though was still in the land of cake wanting immigration control too).

David Davis took to the Commons to answer questions and was met with a chorus of rising alarm. Whilst he confirmed that the majority of EU citizens here do have their right to remain here as being their legal entitlement, it does not guarantee their rights under this. He echoed the language of the citizen of nowhere in May’s speech and, perhaps can be seen to make, the stark message that you should consider taking on British Citizenship.

Parliament has started to wake up to what is at stake. It is not just whether we stay in the EU or not, but Brexit presents a challenge to democratic processes and threatens to bypass the checks and balances to power that parliament is supposed to provide. It is a threat to our international reputation as a champion of liberal values and democratic stature. It is a threat to our economic security. It is a threat to our diplomatic relations, with the reckless comments and language coming from some. .

The stirrings of rebellion and a credible opposition come from a variety of quarters. From both leavers and remainers alike. From every party including the governments. Initially the government refused to give, so Labour announced an opposition debate on transparency of Brexit and it all started to fall apart. Faced with a vote they could not get enough support to win they made an apparent U-Turn and agreed to parliamentary scrutiny of the government’s position ahead of a50 within certain limits.

Keir Starmer, making the point that Human Rights Lawyers are not to be messed with, has written 170 questions, one for every day before the end of March when a50 is due to be triggered, for Davis to respond to.

However, the agreement to this debate on negotiations is none binding and there is no date for it as yet. The government must not be allowed to pay lip service to rebels. They must be held to this reversal.

Today’s opposition debate seems to suggest that the government definition of scrutiny is wheeling out David Davies and get him to waffle a lot and not say anything. This has gone down like a lead balloon. The government can not maintain this. Something will give. He has still refused to release a green or white paper which many expected.

May’s choice will be blunt. She either keeps pretending Santa is real and can deliver the pony whilst losing the house in the process or she owns up to the looming cold hard truth of reality.

May might be fully committed to taking us off the cliff top no matter what but she’s going to have to fight to get there.

In the best interests of the country the pressure must be kept up. There must be resistance to the ‘Little England’ mentality and orders by the Mail and the Express to silence those unpatriotic ‘agents of Brussels’ who are raising legitimate concerns that need to be considered as part of the process.

Its either this or we will have to rely on the proposed new Royal Yacht to send Kate off round the world begging for trade deals “to once again project the prestige of this nation across the globe” as Mr Gove says. Prestige we still had before the referendum was announced.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Valentine2 · 20/10/2016 17:43

thebathroomsink
Yes it was hard to watch for me too.basically tried to look away at the bits that felt uncomfortable (to the eye that is). But I am slightly disappointed. I expected better and it's my first attempt at any of his documentaries. I once did a large project for my work on the concept at which,according to Curtis, Khomeini founded the concept of suicide bombing on. It was quite a large scale study involving the concept of Hussein's martyrdom tales in literature. There is absolutely no relationship whatsoever between "taking as many with you as you can" and that concept. So I seriously doubt that. Besides, from the Japanese pilots in world war 2 to Tamil Tigers, there are so many other completely independent cultures where the concept of this kind of suicide was actually present. So I am not so sure about the rest of his work anymore. The idea of his documentary is interesting but if such things are presented as facts (social sciences is not my field so even if I can point it out, I don't know what else is wrong in there) then I guess it's not worth it.

Valentine2 · 20/10/2016 17:48

"I take it more as a way of illustrating multiple truths. I think he does fail at certain points and falls foul of his own criticisms about narratives. "
Yes that is something i felt in the beginning of the documentary specially where he talks about the rise of the cyber space. I thought the narrative was way too simplistic.

jaws5 · 20/10/2016 17:49

This is so ridiculous and desperate. New wannabe leader of UKIP connecting with their grassroots.

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
Valentine2 · 20/10/2016 17:51

There is absolutely no relationship whatsoever between "taking as many with you as you can" and that concept. So I seriously doubt that.
When I said this, I meant that in the south Asian culture/art on which I was working. I didn't mean it for the middle eastern/Iranian culture. So again it highlights that he is being too simplistic about it at best and quite misleading if you feel it's rather obvious suicide bombing existed way before then.

Valentine2 · 20/10/2016 17:52

Urrghhh is that Kassam!?? I need to bleach my eyes Shock

Kaija · 20/10/2016 17:54

That's a heartening thing to see, jaws. One would think that as long as they are disappearing up their own fundament they can't do too much damage in the outside world.

jaws5 · 20/10/2016 17:55

Valentine yes.Grin

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 17:56

"Make UKIP great again"

Well, Douglas Carswell aside, as they only succeeded in getting officials elected at the EU parliament, maybe they could move to France?

jaws5 · 20/10/2016 17:59

kaija Grinis he demonstrating the famous British humour to the world? It really made my day, this one!

TheBathroomSink · 20/10/2016 18:00

I'm fine with him using the flashing stuff, although you are right that it does make you feel very unsettled, it doesn't always give me migraines. I think watching late at night didn't help but I'm also run down with a stupid cold, which always makes me more susceptible.

I did watch the 'Who's spending our billions' BBC2 doc, though, which was quite revealing.

jaws5 · 20/10/2016 18:54

Gloriathose articles are chilling...

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 19:02

I'm lost at the making ukip great again...like...as if they were great beforeConfused Anyway, thread has moved on it I'd like to come back to a couple of posters.
Ron, I overlooked your question on schools. I don't support academic selection (although to be honest I'd like to see some setting in core subjects as children move through the school. Then we could say goodbye to Sats) and think all our schools should be good, inclusive and secular. A root and branch needed.
Gloria: the term imbecilic is offensive, there is no need for such language.

TheBathroomSink · 20/10/2016 19:09

I think Farage probably got a reduced rate on some unused printing time from the Trump campaign and they didn't get to change too much, seeing as how Banks is getting bored and taking his wallet to play somewhere else...

GloriaGaynor · 20/10/2016 19:10

Well I find it offensive to mention trade deals without some grasp of what's on the table. Diff'rent stokes eh?

Or 'simples' as you might say.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 19:26

Faisal Islam ‏@faisalislam
French President @fhollande welcomed May to EU Council, but... "if Theresa May wants a hard Brexit, the negotiations will be very tough."

Exclusive: PM expressed concern -"difficult for UK" in Summit at attempts to adopt EU-27 remainers agenda today. More on @skynewstonight now
EU source to @skynews: "at start of meeting Pm May said that she will not accept rubber stamping EU decisions if UK not invited" - that was a reference to the Bratislava meeting in September which the EU27 attended, the results being presented by @Robertfico ...
Sky News understands that it was not an attempt to say that the EU should stop meeting at 27 (next one in Valletta in January)...
EU source to @skynews - Tusk replied to the PM: all this is a result of the Brexit vote, and the EU 27 WILL keep meeting

Everything is going just swimmingly then, Mrs May?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 20/10/2016 20:08

BoredofBrexit Thu 20-Oct-16 15:34:13
Cecile if the EU want hard Brexit or no Brexit, where exactly does that leave us then? Not much scope to negotiate is there? Where is the outcry at such a position taken by EU?

Either way, it leaves the UK exactly where the UK wanted to be, which is most likely outside the EU, sovereign, free (and broke but heyho).
What is your problem with that?

There is no outcry because it wasn't the EU that initiated any of this. And also because most people can understand that the EU doesn't owe the UK anything and has a right to safeguard its own best interests. They have the right to insist on terms that cause the least harm to them, individually and collectively. There are two years to negotiate before the UK falls over a cliff. Why should the EU bother negotiating too hard, when other potential leavers would only be encouraged to put the EU over a barrel if that happened?

Do you think the EU owes the UK something?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2016 20:17

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/20/uk-will-get-a-hard-brexit-if-may-pursues-tough-approach-hollande?CMP=twt_gu
UK will get a hard Brexit if May pursues tough approach – Hollande

news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-to-host-brexit-summit-for-eu-socialists-10625007
Jeremy Corbyn to host Brexit summit for EU socialists
The Labour leader arranges a February gathering in London ahead of Theresa May's expected triggering of Article 50.

QT tonight:
Ken Clarke (CON)
Angela Rayner (LAB)
Lisa Duffy (UKIP)
Yanis Varoufakis
Conrad Black (ex-Telegraph owner)

Real comment in Mail today

Westministenders. Boris and co learn the basics - and limits - of British sovereignty and democracy.
OP posts:
mathanxiety · 20/10/2016 20:19

Thank you for the Irish Times reference to the Jim O'Callaghan contribution to the Irish Budget debate.

O'Callaghan is absolutely correct and his comments reflect deep anger that is widely felt in Ireland, both the Republic and NI.

whatwouldrondo · 20/10/2016 20:21

bored My point though is that any PM who can sanction Grammar Schools meeting the need for new school places, and indeed to cave in to the Catholic Education Service's blackmail (they have refused to take part in the Free School programme because they were required to make 50% of the places not dependent on the willingness of a child's parents to jump through whatever hoops a Catholic School chooses to set as a test of faith, though of course they cannot make windows on mens' souls and expecting mothers to clean the silver, as the Oratory School did, was a particularly inept attempt) is a signal that far from making the "just managing" her priority, in reality it will be the traditional Tory voters. Even in London most parents, even if they are the "metropolitan elite", want what you aspire to, inclusive outstanding comprehensive schools, the statistics on first preferences prove that. Grammar School admissions arrangements have spawned a tutoring racket that few parents condone and where there are not enough Grammar Schools to completely divide pupils at 11 top sets in outstanding Comprehensives match the results in schools that are supposedly selecting the top 3% of the ability range. The reality is that TM is proposing that the need for school paces should be met by schools, both Grammar and Faith, that in my area account for less than 1% of children on FSM where the figure in the local community is 10%. Do you think she is going to deliver equality?

whatwouldrondo · 20/10/2016 20:45

She is not going to stop the practise of including International students, who are a benefit to the economy, in the immigration statistics as a target for control. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/20/theresa-may-slaps-down-philip-hammond-over-student-visas/

Sad piece from the vice chancellor of Sheffield about how the benefits of international students are undervalued europe.newsweek.com/why-britains-universities-must-be-international-country-thrive-509568

I don't think Red that the point about studentifcation of city suburbs was especially relevant in terms of overseas students who tend to opt for university accommodation or the high end private sector provision that has sprung up in city centres, the virtue gained by spending your student years crammed into damp houses with terrible carpets and broken IKEA furniture is very much a British thing......)

BoredofBrexit · 20/10/2016 21:46

Ron, I believe she will have to. You heard the reaction to the conference. Pitched wrongly. TM is probably quite a good psychological fit ironically to many on these threads, just so so out of sync with reality. Hence the stupendous reception of whatever programme it is that they are all watching now.

TheElementsSong · 20/10/2016 22:08

You heard the reaction to the conference. Pitched wrongly.

Eh? Tories are riding high in the polls.

whatwouldrondo · 20/10/2016 22:09

What reception to her speech? You mean the applause of the Tory faithful and the Daily Mail who then dutifully spun the speech as required? Well Bored I am glad somebody still has faith in the democratic process because I am quite sure that May has faith in her unholy, and certainly undemocratic alliance with Dacre and their ability to manage perceptions and attitudes and create scapegoats as required whilst implementing a right wing agenda. When I hear they are actually implementing one single policy that mitigates the horrendous effects of austerity, starting with their entirely indefensible reduction of the quality of life for the disabled then I might change the view but then as the true economy effects of Brexit start to bite in terms of the UKs ability to compete in global markets and tax revenues reduce they won't even be able to afford humanity and equality.

CeciledeVolanges · 20/10/2016 22:12

math* the UK is party to (I.e. Has signed up to by choice) thirteen THOUSAND treaties. All imposing obligations on it.