If this isn't what you voted for stand up and be counted!

[WidowWadman]

So all those Brexiteers and Lexiters who didn't vote on the basis of immigration controls, where are you? Will there be marches against May's interpretation of your vote?

You know, I actually believe that plenty of people didn't realise what their vote was going to unleash despite being warned frequently and emphatically. It's not too late to speak out and stand up against it. If you didn't mean it, don't hide behind that you haven't meant it. Do something about it.

Pro-tip: declaring xenophobic things to be not xenophobic, actually is not speaking out against it or distancing yourself from it. Declaring hurt at being lumped in with the xenophobes without outright condemnation of their rhetoric doesn't count as standing up to it. Much the opposite.

I'd agree fakenowfornow.

20 years of blaming the EU and immigrants (of all kinds) for all the ills of society has paid off.

They were VERY vocal prior to the vote, in fact these boards were dominated by leave voters back then, where are they all now?

Maybe they're sick of you aggressively demanding they explain themselves....over & over & over again.
Almost 4 months on & you still haven't quite grasped that.

Ah surfer, they pretty much vanished on the day of the vote. A whole raft of them, and we're not allowed to name them, but I'm sure they were being paid to be here.

Its just you with your "well researched" reasons, which turn out not to be that's here whinging because you can't justify your point.

Nobody has to justify anything to you smallfox, nobody.

I don't know who you think you are.

Ah, the leaver style debate.

No one should be challenged, my ignorance is equal to your knowledge, that one?

I know exactly who I am, and I'm very happy with that, it'd be very disappointing to be as inarticulate as some here though.

Smallfox, I'm saying this with kindness & as a referendum thread regular to another.
I can take any insult you throw at me, I don't care, but have you thought about taking a break from this board? It just seems to wind you up. I don't want to argue with you.

Oh I'm sure you can do better than that :)

Bottle of Jack Daniels & a kebab?

"where are they all now?"

Does it actually matter? They're not answerable to you.

And I suspect a lot of MNers have hidden this topic by now.

Well the question at the start of the thread is "if this is not what you voted for".

Many,many leave voters on here were very vocal about their vote not being about immigration. So where are they now that it is being made all about immigration?

Oh and yes people will have just hidden the EU threads because of me? don't think so.

Smallfox, why are you being so aggressive?
What exactly are you wanting people to justify to you?

I haven't asked anyone to justify themselves. What I have asked is in keeping with the spirit at the start of the thread.

Where are those people that were so vociferous in the fact that their vote was about democracy and sovereignty and not immigration?

I suggest you take a look at the large amount of aggression and derisory comments that come may way before you make accusations too.

Someone could do with a lemsip and a good wank, not mentioning any names.

What do you mean where are they? What do you want them to say?
I voted leave for a good number of reasons, don't regret my vote at all and am pleased to see its starting to be moved forward.
I'm still here, but I don't know what you're looking for us to say?

How do you feel about the proposed immigration rules for example

Or about the fact that democratic process isn't being followed effectively disenfranchising 48% of the electorate?

I think it's still very fair for everyone.
And, yes, the democratic process is being followed, as the majority voted to leave. I can't believe this argument is still happening after four months!

The democratic process is not being followed! The majority that voted leave is 3% its hardly an overwhelming mandate, Farrage and others said that if it had been a small majority the other way then the debate would have continued.

Such a small majority certainly does not give a mandate for the process of leaving not to be debated in parliament along with the other changes.

In essence this referendum is being used exactly the same way dictators use them, to claim backing for their own direction and then to remove debate after it.

I'm quite happy to admit that we have to negotiate to leave, but the format that it takes must be debated by the representitives of the people in Parliament, not driven through without debate as this disenfranchises a lot of people.

Hmm, a Tory Pro-Leave MP and barrister would seem to disagree that "democratic process is being followed":

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/10/tory-mp-anna-soubry-concerned-rush-hard-brexit

Stephen Phillips, who voted to leave in the referendum, said the government appeared intent on negotiating “without any regard to the House of Commons” in a way that was “fundamentally undemocratic, unconstitutional and cuts across the rights and privileges of the legislature”.

Phillips said: “I and many others did not exercise our vote in the referendum so as to restore the sovereignty of this parliament only to see what we regarded as the tyranny of the European Union replaced by that of a government that apparently wishes to ignore the views of the house on the most important issue facing the nation.”

How do you feel about the proposed immigration rules for example

My mum thinks they don't go far enough, people should be made to leave the country. She's not just talking about EU nationals either, she voted out so no terrorists come here (remember the Farage poster?). I have heard this view repeated by every single member of my family (expressing an opinion) who's over retirement age, every single one of them.

I voted remain, I used to defend leave voters having concerns about immigration because I do think there are some legitimate concerns and immigration hasn't been without it's problems. Government should have fixed these problems though by funding communities better. I can sympathise with people if their child is struggling to learn to read, getting no extra help, then an Eastern European child arrives in class unable to speak English and gets 121 support. I can see that would build resentment, rightwing press directed it towards the migrants when it rightly should have been directed at government. I don't defend concerns about immigration anymore because so many people holding these views have shown themselves to be nothing but hideous racists, mass immigration, and rightwing press, might have them into being hideous racists, but regardless, that's what they are now, and they're now dictating what government does through this referendum.

The problem elements - and it is a problem inherent across every thread in this board - is that you are presenting facts, and those who are pro-hard brexit really have no need for facts. They're fired by nationalistic zealotry, and so facts are unnecessary, and if one insists on pointing them out, they are relegated as tiresomely pedantic persons; worse, elite tiresome pedantic persons, who should just stop talking: because, you see, 'Brexit will be great', and no reason is required for it to be so other than 'that it will happen.' Furthermore, the faster it happens, the greater it will be. It's fine for companies to be forced to provide data on how many immigrants they employ, and increases in racist and homophobic attacks are by-the-by; a necessary evil on the path to a better future - that's assuming they happened at all. And it's fine for Teresa May to press ahead without parliamentary consultation, it's foreign dictatorships we disapprove of, not those at home. The glorious end justifies the means. It's going to be great!!

I voted leave because there is a gaping hole in democratic accountability in the EU in the form of the European Commission, and I have watched numerous attempts to reform the commission fail because their power base is so entrenched. And it's not a just a little Englander concern - worries about this have been voiced by German parliamentarians:
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/21/eu-future-post-brexit-germany-split-european-government

But I will happily stand up and be counted as someone who is appalled by May and Rudd. I'm doing what I can via trade union activism to press for a fair deal for EU citizens in the UK - what are the remainers on this thread doing?

However, I'm not surprised you're not getting many responses to threads like this - by being so aggressive towards anyone who voted leave, you are preventing people speaking out on here. Any attempt to say "I voted leave" results in a pile on. So, actually I hold the "you're all thick and/or racist" faction of the remain campaign more than a bit responsible too - you are creating a polarised climate where it becomes impossible to express any sort of opinion which doesn't fall into the two categories you want to hear - virtuous underdogs who voted remain versus pantomime racist villains who voted leave.

Softbrexit,

So you don't think there is a democratic deficit in the way it is being pushed through? Or with the proposed changes to legislation without parliamentary debate?

I find that position very difficult to reconcile, and although I disagree about the commission being undemocratic ( its appointed by the national governments, and is accountable to the parliament and council), I think that any position on democracy is fundamentally flawed following the actions of the government.

Thank you SoftBrexit for standing up, and for your efforts in support of EU citizens.

impossible to express any sort of opinion which doesn't fall into the two categories you want to hear - virtuous underdogs who voted remain versus pantomime racist villains who voted leave.

This itself is surely an unhelpful caricature of the situation we find ourselves in?

Ah - I'm happy to hear from you SoftBrexit! I hope there are more people in this country like you.

Whilst I don't agree that any democratic deficit was sufficient to merit leaving the EU (and there was of course a democratic deficit in this country too, even prior to the Brexit vote) I think this a difference of opinion and very different from some of the nastier UKIP-style xenophobic bile which appears to now have become mainstream.

Unfortunately, there has been a lot of xenophobic talk recently - and those who could most effectively stop us are the people who voted Leave for reasons other than immigration. I for one, would like to hear more from you.

I think a lot of people who voted leave who now regret it are unlikely to be vocal about this. I have a friend who I know voted leave, haven't spoken to her about it other than before the referendum her saying she was hoping it would lower house prices so they could get on the ladder. I genuinely think that was her overriding reason. To be honest I feel so strongly I never spoke to her about it in any depth as it felt too awkward.

I believe she now regrets it through the articles she is liking that I am posting, and a few distressed comments about the governments lack of plan. She definitely isn't in any way racist/anti immigrant in any way.

However she wouldn't be likely to be posting on here. And I can't imagine her ever being politically motivated enough to stand up and voice her discontent.

I wonder how many like her there are? Those that feel cheated but will never say so?