If this isn't what you voted for stand up and be counted!

[WidowWadman]

So all those Brexiteers and Lexiters who didn't vote on the basis of immigration controls, where are you? Will there be marches against May's interpretation of your vote?

You know, I actually believe that plenty of people didn't realise what their vote was going to unleash despite being warned frequently and emphatically. It's not too late to speak out and stand up against it. If you didn't mean it, don't hide behind that you haven't meant it. Do something about it.

Pro-tip: declaring xenophobic things to be not xenophobic, actually is not speaking out against it or distancing yourself from it. Declaring hurt at being lumped in with the xenophobes without outright condemnation of their rhetoric doesn't count as standing up to it. Much the opposite.

Just give it up.

Leave voters hide behind their attacks on Remainers. That's all they seem to ever do.

You will never ever get rational logical debate from them. I've never read or heard any.

Just constant jeers and sneers about levels of education, elite, toys out of pram, sovereignty etc. All desperately shutting down discussion and debate. Which is hardly democratic.

I don't know why really. It's quite scary to hear such sentiment that is anti education and anti democracy. In a democracy freedom of speech is vital.

And well, our UK is stuck with it now.

At least the world is now focused on the USA and the next car crash of 2016 instead of sniggering at us.

I am also sick of the stereotyping. I voted remain. I earn 13,000 pa, I think that makes me about as from elite as you can get in this country.

My main reasons for voting remain were because I want peace in Europe, I believe in the free movement of people, I don't want to be poorer and I want the few workers' rights I have protected.

Every single person I know that voted leave did so because of immigration and racism.

NameChanger Do you think it's possible that there are some people you know who you don"t know how they voted? Or have you discussed it with everyone you know?

Namechanger - no, stereotyping is not nice is it. The people that you know that are racist, are you pulling them up on it? I certainly wouldn't want to be around anyone like that and yes I would pull people up on it and I have done in the past (about 12 months ago).

Sorry, ignore my post - it"s getting too late for me. The reason I asked is that in my experience, a lot of people are not talking about Brexit and the referendum now (for obvious reasons). It's also my experience that quite a few people, who I would have tended to think myself fairly similar to politically/socially, have just assumed I voted remain the same as them without asking me or seeming to have considered the possibility that I didn't. I have not put them right on this. I wonder how much this is going on in the population. If it is happening much, and I suspect it is, it will be increasing the "them and us" feeling which is going on, which seems to lead to some people feeling it is okay to make sweeping generalisations and stereotyping observations about people who voted differently to them.

wrong, that's interesting that you're not even willing to be counted within your peer group.

If you truly stand by your vote and think it was absolutely the right thing to do, why would you let people assume you'd voted Remain?

I understand not saying anything either way if no assumption were made about what you'd done but I genuinely don't understand why you'd be happy for people to think you'd done the exact opposite of what you actually did.

Bear I think at some point we need to try starting to understand each other (leavers and remainers) rather than trying to score points.

I suspect you can understand my reasoning if you try, and if you take some of the comments made on MN about leavers as representative of those you might hear in the real world.

I have had a family relationship damaged, possibly beyond repair, because of hearing how that person was prepared to allow others to talk about leave voters. It is very hard to move past hearing yourself denigrated and insulted by people you love or care for or respect. I think some leave voters really should spend some time trying to understand what damage is being done by these insults.

I am proud of how I voted and believe I made the right decision. But I do not feel I have to sacrifice my mental and social wellbeing to correct the misunderstandings or stereotypical views some remain voters may hold about leave voters.

If anyone asks me, I will tell them how I voted. If they assume, I will, depending on the situation, leave them to it (eg change the subject - I don't continue the topic as if I voted remain, so if they have any sensitivity they way well take the hint).

It's not ideal, but my thinking is that someone who makes such a massive assumption, so brazenly, is not likely to have an open minded approach to the issue and there is a limit to how much upset I will invite into my own life.

I think there is a lot of shock and anger at the Brexit vote, and sometimes people who are angry say things they will, in the future, regret. But things can't be unsaid and the damage will be done and relationships harmed. My hope is that people will gradually start to realise that there is not some huge "them and us" divide. I think the Ashcroft poll should be compulsory reading before any one is allowed to discuss Brexit in public as you only need to look at this to see that the assumptions some remainders' are clinging to about leavers are garbage. But unfortunately many people are not trying to understand, and often the more angry people are trying to understand the least.

I agree we need to try and understand each other better wrong, hence my question.

I do think your answer illustrates why there is such bad feeling though.

I genuinely don't understand how or why any Leave voter would not be able to articulate their reason for their vote and their hopes for the future and argue their case either on here or IRL

If that reason / hope is vague/ woolly or just incorrect then, IMO it's quite right this should be pointed out.

That seems to be the crux of it to me- Leavers reasons / aspirations just don't stand up to discussion, to the extent they won't discuss them which leads us back around in circles.

I agree we need to try and understand each other better wrong, hence my question.

Good, pleased to hear it Bear

I do think your answer illustrates why there is such bad feeling though.

No, not accepting that. That is such a twisting of the situation I am not going to discuss it further.

I genuinely don't understand how or why any Leave voter would not be able to articulate their reason for their vote and their hopes for the future and argue their case either on here or IRL

I am perfectly capable of articulating the reasons for my vote and my hopes for the future, thanks. I do so frequently but chose to do so with people who I trust to be respectful of 37% of the electorate.

If that reason / hope is vague/ woolly or just incorrect then, IMO it's quite right this should be pointed out.

That seems to be the crux of it to me- Leavers reasons / aspirations just don't stand up to discussion, to the extent they won't discuss them which leads us back around in circles.

I am torn as to whether you really believe this and whether you have genuinely misunderstood what I am saying. So I will try again and then I am going to take a break from these threads for a while for my sanity.

Here goes -

I chose not to discuss Brexit with people who are sufficiently close-minded that it has not crossed their mind that I (and presumably many others like me) might have voted leave because I do not want to risk hearing them say bigoted, stereotyped and insulting things about leave voters because if they do this, that will be another relationship irreparably damaged. I hope that in the future, people will move past this, will be less angry and more open-minded in their views of leave voters but this is where we are at the moment.

I wonder if the fact that you are finding it so hard to understand this, indicates that you have not really grasped what it is like to have people you love or respect calling you and you nearest and dearest stupid, uneducated and racist. It is not a trivial thing. As I said earlier, one of my family relationships is ripped to shreds as I find it very difficult to be close to someone who will stand by whilst I, and people like me, am called all sorts of names. In an ideal world, I would be as tough as nails and would face it all out. But it's not and I'm not.

I think we all have a responsibility to try to heal the huge rift the referendum has caused, on MN and in real life and I try not to make things worse in anything I say or write. But it is not all one side's responsibility.

Anyway, you can take that how you will, and if you want to twist my reply as more evidence that I cannot articulate the reasons for voting leave, then please do so. I'd rather you didn't.

wrong I'm not trying to twist anything, these threads are filled with Leavers who either can't or won't discuss their reasons/ or hopes.

The fact that you'd rather people assume you voted Remain than actually discuss the situation IRL has really surprised me.

Surely people only call you racist/ a bigot/ deluded or whatever insult gets traded if your reasons led them to that conclusion.

If your (or any leavers reasons) reasons stood up to scrutiny and you could articulate them when required surely that would go a long way to healing this rift.

The issue really does seem to be no one on the Leave side saying anything that stands up to scrutiny whilst tangible things like the plummeting pound, business investment being put on hold are tangible negative affects of the decision.

wrong I'm not trying to twist anything, these threads are filled with Leavers who either can't or won't discuss their reasons/ or hopes.

won't

The fact that you'd rather people assume you voted Remain than actually discuss the situation IRL has really surprised me.

Yes it surprises me, and appalls me actually, that this is the situation we find ourselves in. But this is the situation and I have to live in the real world.

Surely people only call you racist/ a bigot/ deluded or whatever insult gets traded if your reasons led them to that conclusion.

No, I have heard many people call all leavers uneducated, stupid, bigoted and racist who have absolutely no idea of my motives (may not even be aware that I exist). I am talking about people making generalised sterotyping observations about leavers, not specific remarks made to me about me.

If your (or any leavers reasons) reasons stood up to scrutiny and you could articulate them when required surely that would go a long way to healing this rift.

And here we get into circular la-la land. To me, your reasons for voting remain do not stand up to scrutiny. That is why I voted leave. Similarly, for you, my reasons for voting leave do not stand up to scrutiny. If they did you would have voted leave too.

If you are going to argue, "we will only respect you if we agree with your reasons for your vote" then we are never going to respect each other. There needs to be respect despite not agreeing with each other.

WT actually I've never actually seen your reasons for voting leave, nor have I seen you put together an adequate challenge on voting to remain.

The only way I could possibly respect a leave vote is if you said it was on democracy and sovereignty, and supported brexit being debated and voted on in parliament as well as any changes to legislation

That's right small and if you had read my last few posts you would have read my explanation of why I now chose to discuss these issues only with people who I trust to talk respectfully about the 37% of the electorate who voted leave (not all leavers, I hasten to add).

From my experience, i have been surprised about who voted leave and remain. I really expected those of my friends with lower incomes, living in less well to do areas, lower education eyc all the stereotypes to vote leave but a lot of themvoted remain and vice versa many well established, wealthy, educated friends voted leave. Leave voters always said it was about immigration and remain voters either about economy or lack of exit plan. Just my experience but still.

Whatever happens now this country is fucked.
It's split in two & I doubt it will ever recover.
It's like the miners strike all over again.

if you are going to argue "we will only respect you if we agree with your reasons for your vote" then we are never going to respect each other. There needs to be respect despite not agreeing with each other.

But the key factor here is we don't know your or most other leavers reasons.

I've said repeatedly I voted Remain because I didn't see a benefit in leaving.

A leave voter should be able to counter that very easily with reasons why we'll be better if out but all we get is rhetoric and vague statements about sovereignty and control or immigration or regulations.

Agreed bear.

Its just a vague set of excuses yet you come here and try to hold others to task for their opinions.

Rather odd.

Whatever happens now this country is fucked.
It's split in two & I doubt it will ever recover.
It's like the miners strike all over again.

I fear you are right surfer and find this very sad indeed .

To be honest, my issue isn't even on MN where a lot of Leavers aren't engaging in the debate.
My issue is the overall attitude that is a bit like 'well the vote was Brexit so just let do whatever our PM says we should'. There is no wish to get involve, get yourself heard etc...
It's not new though and is partly linked with the general attitude of the politicians/press where every time the population express its concerns (eg when there was a huge manmaifestation against the war in Irak), it was just dismissed by politicians and the press only concentrated on the 'hooligans'.
Direct democracy hasn't taken hold in the UK.

But even worse is the fact that few politicians are voicing concerns about it. It seems that newspaper and UKIP has brainwashed everyone that this referendum was about immigration and only immigration so everyone is just accepting without a fight.

I don't want Leavers or Remainers to explain why they voted like this. I don't want any explaination from Tories or labour voters about their stance on immigration.

I would like to understand why it seems OK to shot down any discussions on any subject raised by the PM.
I would like to understand why it is OK for a PM to go over the Parliament and to refuse to involve them in what is the biggest change in the UK history in decades.

Because as far as I can see, ppoeple have posted Leave or Remain for a variety of reasons. Some of which would actually reunite some Leave and Remain voters (eg the one who wanted to sof Brexit or don't want to chuck expats currently living in the UK out).
So why is it not OK to discuss and share pov which, at least, would have the very positive effect or reuniting the country after a vote that has nicely separated it into two neat blocks?

I voted remain and I'm genuinely interested in what leavers who DIDN'T vote out because of free movement DO want from Brexit, and how they might feel about the way TM is going about managing the process. And, as the OP says, how, if leavers are not happy with the direction of Brexit, they might express that.

I don't think that the country is split in two at all. In reality I think that there are factions within each side, but there are by far the largest number of factions in leave all of whom were assured that they were going to get their vested interests prioritised. Yet I feel that these factions will find that they have been led up the garden path to their doom, Walrus and Carpenter style.

When they realise this the leave vote will fracture but unfortunately it will be too late.

small - FGS what is wrong with you!!.

Wrong- you posted a very reasonable and honest account and I think some posters should feel very ashamed of themselves. I just keep telling myself to be grateful that I don't know any of them in real life. Have some .

What do you mean what is wrong with me? I think I'm on the money on that aspect.