If this isn't what you voted for stand up and be counted!

[WidowWadman]

So all those Brexiteers and Lexiters who didn't vote on the basis of immigration controls, where are you? Will there be marches against May's interpretation of your vote?

You know, I actually believe that plenty of people didn't realise what their vote was going to unleash despite being warned frequently and emphatically. It's not too late to speak out and stand up against it. If you didn't mean it, don't hide behind that you haven't meant it. Do something about it.

Pro-tip: declaring xenophobic things to be not xenophobic, actually is not speaking out against it or distancing yourself from it. Declaring hurt at being lumped in with the xenophobes without outright condemnation of their rhetoric doesn't count as standing up to it. Much the opposite.

I'm coming to realise two things though.
One is that I have been grieving not being, in some ways, an equal citizen in this country (I have lost the European citizenship that was making me in kind as British citizens).
But I've also realised that I am 'only' an immigrant, my view of the country has changed. It is not 'MY' country anymore. Just something I happen to live in. Being related as a transient person who can be kicked out at any point and has to jump through hoops for the privilege means that I am loosing the connexion for the country. (And yes even if it's just been rethorics at that stage)
Just as much as I would have never thought about leaving (this is where my dcs have been born and where I've lived the longest in my life, longest than my 'home country') before, now I feel I have no tie with it.

This can't be good for the UK. Because if many more people feel the same and feel less 'involved' with the UK, then they are less likely to want to invest here, less likely to want to make a positive difference for the UK, rather than for themselves.

Maybe I'm an isolated case.
Or maybe this is the effect of having been told for while now that we are just coming 'to take away from' and that we are not welcomed.

No Scared it's not just you

Why you? I think you said that you hadn't read the news. Now you have been told about the comments about of lack of patriotism made by some Newspapers, who are not wonderful and squeaky clean but were so patriotic that they supported Hitler. You did talk about And well done to Natalia for shoehorning Hitler in.

There is a reason why some of us are worried - last week's Tory Conference was whipping up anti - foreigner fervour, and now the Mail and Express are piling in with their scurrilous statements. Some of us don't want our grandchildren to be saying, 'why didn't you do something to stop it', as my generation said to their elders. Their answer - "we didn't know, we didn't think it would get out of hand" - are answers which won't wash for us, because we have history to learn from.

Whoah peregrine. ... I know I'm the one the reputation for being adversarial and such but I don't think you can claim she doesn't read the news or doesn't get the situation.

Now.. wine ☺

I think she said she hadn't read today's news, which is not saying that she doesn't read the news at all. Some days nothing much happens. Today the Mail and Express both had inflammatory articles.

As for shoe-horning Hitler in - I make no apology for that. We are right to be worried; if our fears don't come to pass, well and good. If they look as though they are likely to, then I will endeavour to stop them.

Their answer - "we didn't know, we didn't think it would get out of hand" - are answers which won't wash for us, because we have history to learn from.

Completely agree with this. And it's true for history much further back than the 20th century as well....

But that's what today in parliament was all about. The executive got a total kicking.

they haven't been able to stop the debate and it won't now be stopped. first time since Robin Cook I've been proud of parliament!

The executive did get a kicking (at least for the bit I watched)....but unfortunately we don't have separation of powers in this country....

After today I'm fairly confident a vote and consultation will happen. Too many senior and influential people spoke against it.

....but we don't want to listen to experts, smallfox2002. We're all a bit sick of people who are senior and influential. We don't want evidence and facts and all that shit. We have our own opinions and that's what matters.

I think we should apply this more widely actually. Save the NHS a fortune if we didn't employ any doctors (certainly not any foreign ones). We could just ask my mum to diagnose everyone. She'd mean well. (Insider tip if this happens - buy Glaxo. Her go to solution for all things is to take a couple of Beechams Powders and have a glass of wine.)

Natalia - my Granny's patent remedy for just about anything was a teaspoon of Bicarbonate of soda in a glass of warm water. It wasn't always as stupid as it sounded - for something like a stye on the eye, it could work well. We might need to go back to these old fashioned remedies.

Peregrina That's the spirit. All those EU research grants to British universities? Who needs those? We've got our bicarb. And the £350 million a week that the tooth fairy is going to leave under Iain Duncan Smith's pillow....

All those EU research grants to British universities?

There was an even better suggestion on one of the science threads - apparently we don't need science funding because we can just Google stuff !

Trojan, whether or not it was about immigration for leave voters, if you voted leave you legitimised a campaign based on xenophobia in order to obtain better democracy and 'sovereignty'.
Democracy has been scrapped in this process, die to leave voters refusing to acknowledge that they weren't actually voting for anything tangible. Where are you now?

Natalia DH has a much better solution to all ill health - Go for a run.
he obviously has never been REALLY ill

Elements of course you just Google! Whatelse are you supposed to do?

On the news today: it's the start of the legal challenge about not involving both Chambers of Parliament to validate the exit of the EU... This could get fun...

When I had a cold as a child in the 1970s, my mum used to put brown sugar all over a raw onion and make me drink the liquid that came off it - stuff of nightmares.

Peregrina yes, dear! And I had the good grace to acknowledge that I had probably missed something that Natalia had been referring to!

Now, could you too try and have a discussion without the name calling, hyperbole and invective?

I mean, if you really want to go down the route of "Fuck you Blanche, you are the root cause of all immigrants dreading the knock at their door" then fine! Go for it! Fearmonger away!

Currently some of the invective here almost matches the hysteria in the newspapers you are quoting! STOP IT!

Just talk, discuss it, then get off your computer and DO SOMETHING!

Go talk to your local MP! Set up petitions, if that makes you feel better, more anonymous, march, shout, write letters, join parties, movements, BE HEARD... be aware that the other side will do the same!

But stop being a shouty keyboard warrior! That changes nothing! Well, maybe it raises your blood pressure!

I don't know why you are using such language on me, OurBlanche - It's not language I use myself. I said you'd missed something and went on to explain why it upset me. There was no 'name calling, hyperbole or invective.'

Go talk to your local MP! Set up petitions, if that makes you feel better, more anonymous, march, shout, write letters, join parties, movements, BE HEARD... be aware that the other side will do the same!

Done all those. Fine if the other side wants to do that.
Reporting your post BTW.

On the news today: it's the start of the legal challenge about not involving both Chambers of Parliament to validate the exit of the EU... This could get fun...

Led by Lord Panick

Now that is somethng worth shouting about, debating fully here. The ins and outs of 'prerogatvie powers' are fascinating, it seems.

But none of that will change the utter polemic of Brexit!

But maybe the hope/fear fo another form of vote will force BOTH camps to proffer up some more considered arguments, without the invective, highly charged emotions and finger pointing. Well, we can hope!

Oops, sorry M'lud - Lord Pannick!

Reporting it? OK! Shall I help and report myself too? Silence the naysayers!

Good grief, looks like everybody needs to take a chill pill!

I agree this is actually at the heart of a lot if the talks going on ATM.

1- because it would mean, IMO, that we are finally starting to talk about what've sort of Brexit we want
2- because the 'bit you are a Remoaner you don't have a voice' or 'you do t want what TM has decided therefore you are against Brexit' might finally be a thing of the past.

Going over the pros and cons if Brexit isn't going to help now.
What we need is to start talking about what sort of Brexit we want. And what to do and NOT to do to get it.
Clue inflammatory proposal that are upsetting eastern countries will not help a soft Brexit as they will be
More likely to use their veto.
Not using 'true' statistics on immigration (see the one about foreign students illegally staying)
Or not listening to businesses or what the WHOLE population wants
Or insisting to not see the corelation between some types of speeches from the PM, BJ etc and the value of the pound etc...

Agree Scared and not having Boris Johnson making his crass throwaway remarks. We might think he's a lovable buffoon - I doubt very much whether the Germans and the other nations that we need to negotiate with do.

Peace and love.