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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

506 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/08/2016 13:14

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

OP posts:
mrsvilliers · 14/09/2016 12:10

Thanks! Growing up there we would have always said 'the republic' or 'down south'. And despite that I still get confused between NI and Ulster Wink . It's a tricky little country!

mrsvilliers · 14/09/2016 12:14

I think it's not being considered because the UK gov assume they will just go back to the biateral agreements that pre date the EU (in fact still in place.) Do they even override the EU? The problem will be in how to negotiate border control with the EU. So the British Isles will in effect continue as it has been but it's the other bit that's tricky

charleybarley · 14/09/2016 12:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GloriaGaynor · 14/09/2016 12:30

ROI (or Eire)/NI distinction is made in online discussions to make things clearer. Irish friends on another politics forum do the same.

I don't use ROI in real life I call it Eire.

Peregrina · 14/09/2016 12:34

I'd like to see them define what they mean by a 'hard border'. It's to be sincerely hoped that it's not armed guards at the borders.

The Russian and Nowegians (in Schengen) have an agreement that people living within 30 km of the border have free movement. As far as I can tell that means Russians going over to work, and being paid Norwegian wages and Norwegians going over a couple of times a month to fill up with cheap petrol. There are border posts, and parking areas where lorries get pulled aside, although I think ordinary motorists get waved through. But it's a sparsely populated area, almost literally at the end of the earth.

I wonder if that could work between NI and RoI? At least as far as workers and goods intended only for either of the two countries concerned?

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 13:40

But there surely doesn't actually need to be any sort of physical border at all in Ireland (other than a technical one used to distinct the two parts of the island of Ireland).

The island is wholly separate to GB, therefore any 'hard border' for GB is already there geographically.

At GB ports of entry, minimal fuss on entry to citizens of Ireland & UK, proper passport control measures for all others outwith UK & Ireland.

Why is that not a possibility?
I genuinely don't understand what is wrong with that proposal at all, and don't see why something like that would affect the current peace agreement in Ireland.

Peregrina · 14/09/2016 13:50

therefore any 'hard border' for GB is already there geographically.

We are back to the question, what do we mean by hard border, and also, what sort of agreement will we negotiate with the EU? We won't be able to go back to the status quo prior to being in the EU, because the RoI has no intention of leaving. I could envisage a mini-Schengen agreement between RoI and NI, but then we would have to have the customs duties and inspections on the UK side - at Fishguard and Holyhead.

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 13:55

Why not a mini Schengen Agreement between Ireland & UK though, not just within the island of Ireland?

MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 13:58

Why not a mini Schengen Agreement between Ireland & UK though, not just within the island of Ireland?

That's what we had in the form of the Common Travel Area , which dates from 1922/23. When both countries entered the EEC at the same time, they were able to maintain that CTA. Now that one is in the EU and the other will not be, it's not clear whether the CTA will be possible and whether the EU will agree.

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 14:04

I think it is the connotation of 'hard border' that we are talking at cross purposes over.

For me, I mean a physical separation of two countries - not an armed checkpoint style border.

As GB is physically separate from other EU countries and shares no common land order it is much easier to have border control.
The only problem with a shared border with an EU country (post Brexit) is within Ireland (as an island).
However, there is no appetite (as far as I am aware) for a physical border within the island of Ireland from Ireland or the UK - hence why there shouldn't be one.

Having the 'UK border' physically in GB makes sense due to geography, and post Brexit, it is entirely up to the UK to go with that option & a reciprocal agreement re free movement - the only sticking point would appear to be whether the EU will 'allow' Ireland to have a reciprocal agreement with UK.

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 14:05
  • land border, not land order.
MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 14:13

the only sticking point would appear to be whether the EU will 'allow' Ireland to have a reciprocal agreement with UK.

...and the fact that there would then be UK citizens not able to avail of freedom of movement within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. Seems a bit discriminatory, no?

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 14:22

and the fact that there would then be UK citizens not able to avail of freedom of movement within the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. Seems a bit discriminatory, no?

Why wouldn't they?

MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 14:29

Well you're suggesting that they be subject to some form of control/check on entry to GB, aren't you? Even if it is 'minimal fuss'.

GloriaGaynor · 14/09/2016 14:53

How will a hard border work if NI & UK leave the single market and the customs union?

Goods going to and from NI from the UK are not subject to border to control. Goods going to/from the EU are.

Goods going to and from ROI from NI/UK are subject to border control. But not goods to/from the EU.

GloriaGaynor · 14/09/2016 14:55

I was referring to MM's suggestion of a 'hard border geographically'.

GloriaGaynor · 14/09/2016 15:01

ie the sea.

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 15:31

Am confused about your last post Gloria.

If UK leave single market & customs union then it is entirely up to the UK as to whether they agree to have an agreement with whomever they choose (Ireland in this case).

If Ireland don't want that or if the EU dictate that they're not allowed to, then that's outwith control of UK.

Again, why would the EU decide a course of action which could potentially cause violent conflict?

Wrt to 'minimal fuss' - ie showing passport in UK & Ireland queue at port of entry to GB - why is that so onerous?
I really, seriously don't get it.
I personally would have no great aversion to showing my passport when arriving in NI or Ireland off a plane or ferry - why would I?

FreeButtonBee · 14/09/2016 15:35

Well, some people don't have passports. And if we are going down the route of having to show passports to travel WITHIN one's own country then that seems like a pretty bold statement.

And the EU may agree to a CTA but at what cost? It's another thing that the UK will be going to the EU cap in hand over. The UK would want the CTA to be agreed so that it can be put into place on day one following actual exit. You can't just leave the 5m people on the whole island in limbo.

SapphireStrange · 14/09/2016 15:38

Aside from practicalities, the very act of having any kind of stop and check will likely not go down well with people who have lived through all that once.

I'm not in Northern Ireland but I am old enough to remember some of the Troubles, and even from my perspective in Scotland and England, the thought of borders makes me go a bit cold inside.

MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 15:45

It's pretty clear you don't get it Mango. Lots of people in NI would have an issue with having to show their passport while travelling within their own country - and rightly so IMO. It's discriminatory against a particular group of citizens of the UK.

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 15:46

What papers did people need to travel from the island of Ireland to GB prior to joining the EU?
(Genuine question).

MangoMoon · 14/09/2016 15:51

It's pretty clear you don't get it Mango. Lots of people in NI would have an issue with having to show their passport while travelling within their own country - and rightly so IMO. It's discriminatory against a particular group of citizens of the UK.

Again, why is it discriminatory?
GB citizens would have to do the same when travelling to NI.
All UK citizens subject to the same rule.

Would it not be more problematic to have to do so within the actual island itself?

Again I ask - what do the people of NI & Ireland want post Brexit?
Because it really is up to nobody else but them & Westminster.

MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 16:10

What papers did people need to travel from the island of Ireland to GB prior to joining the EU?

None, as far as I know. Obviously air travel and the attendant security checks weren't common (and didn't really come into effect until after EEC entry). I don't think you needed a passport to travel by ferry. Travel restrictions were in place for the duration of the war though, and permits required.

MaudGonneMad · 14/09/2016 16:15

Of course it would be more problematic within the island of Ireland. It's still problematic to impose a hard/middling/whatever border around GB. That's why the whole Brexit issue is a complete clusterfuck for NI.

As for what the people of NI wanted, look at the referendum result. They didn't want to leave the EU, quite probably because they realised that Brexit is incompatible with the modus vivendi that has emerged following the GFA which put an end to 30 years of violence. Brexit is also incompatible with maintaining the way Anglo-Irish relations have evolved in the century or so since Ireland left the UK (also a bloody conflict).