So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

None. As there are bilateral agreements in place that mean that Irish citizens have the same right as UK citizens including the right to vote in their country of residency and vice versa.

The main problem is there are a whole load of people in NI with guns (or at least a history of using them) just champing at the bit to have an excuse to go back to causing havoc. And a hard border or passport checks is all they need to get the party started.

MM What agreement do you think would fix the logistics of ROI being in the EU single market and customs union and NI and the rest of the U.K. not? (if that choice were made).

The UK has voted to control its borders and any kind of open border would be a way into the UK. Even if a CTA of persons were agreed, there would have to be customs checks on goods.

It's not the EU's decision, it's the UK goverment's choice that it then has to square with ROI & NI.

While there's some truth to that FreeButton I do think that both sides have legitimate grievances if the Br government tried to impose a border & all its consequences.

On that point, hardcore Republicans have already threatened to blow up any kind of checkpoints.

Well, yes.
Just like it was between ROI & UK prior to EU free movement.

This isn't an explanation for why you feel allowing nationals of a different country to enter unchecked is a hard border.

Also, to whoever asked, of course having to show a passport to travel between NI and GB discriminates against NI residents. The reason being that people from NI are much more likely to have to come to the rest of Great Britain to access services or amenities than vice versa. There's a fuck of a sight more stuff in GB than NI. More people from NI come to GB for NHS treatment than vice versa, for higher education, for cultural amenities. As such, NI residents are considerably more likely to be affected by it than GB residents. This is incredibly obvious, seriously, and the fact that it's not what they voted for adds another insult to the injury.

You are also on some very good glue if you think it's going to fly with the more troublesome Loyalists. Even the ones who voted Leave.

This isn't an explanation for why you feel allowing nationals of a different country to enter unchecked is a hard border.

By 'nationals of a different country' do you mean people from Ireland?
If so, then I don't understand that sentiment - UK & Ireland have a shared land border and it would appear that free movement between the two is a mutually agreeable thing.

If you mean people from other EU countries entering unchecked into NI, then that is up to NI, Ireland & Westminster to decide whether peace and free movement within the island of Ireland is preferable to the people of the island.

Wrt papers to travel between Ireland (island) & GB, then what is currently needed?
Why can that not stand?

Through the Brexit process, NI & Ireland needs to be treated as a unique situation - that is clear.
I would presume that the various bodies set up post GFA are already addressing this.
Any Brexit proposal regarding NI has to be agreed between Ireland, NI & Westminster - and talk of borders/free movement etc as part of Brexit would be 2 distinct strands surely? That is, GB & NI viewed as distinctly separate issues.

Sorry, I meant 'as part of' GFA, not 'post' GFA.

I would presume that the various bodies set up post GFA are already addressing this.

As yet, I don't share your confidence. TM's Government at the moment seem to be running round like headless chickens and there is little evidence that they have given this the attention it sorely needs. I believe that James Brokenshire was regarded as a better appointment as NI Sec than Theresa Villiers was, so perhaps there is a glimmer of hope.

Wrt papers to travel between Ireland (island) & GB, then what is currently needed?
Why can that not stand?

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed at length up thread, but currently no papers are needed from an immigration/border control perspective. Flights from the island of Ireland are treated as domestic flights and do not pass through UK border control on arrival to GB. Similarly there is no standard immigration/border check at ferry ports on the west coast of GB.

That can continue, of course, but then there's no way of controlling EU migration into the UK... All EU citizens have to do is exercise their freedom of movement to come to Ireland, then hop on a plane/ferry to GB.

Long before we were in the EU/EEC entry from Rol was regarded as a back door way into the UK. I think it was some criminals from the US who took advantage of this. It would hit the news when a particular 'undesirable' had slipped in, it wasn't a flood of people, as far as I remember.

Article in the FT today by John Bruton (former Irish PM).

It is difficult to see how the UK can claim to control its borders with the EU if it does not apply the same controls on its land border with the EU in Ireland. Judging from ministerial statements, it is looking likely that the UK will leave the EU customs union because it cannot accept trade policy decisions being made in Brussels. As an EU member, Ireland would then have to impose the full EU common external tariff on imports from Britain.

As the UK insists on controlling immigration from the EU, it will have to impose controls on immigration from, or through, Ireland. Again, this means hard controls within Ireland or between Ireland and the UK mainland. Britain’s subsidisation of the Northern Ireland economy will become less sustainable.

The underlying assumption of the Good Friday agreement between the two governments was that both parts of Ireland would be included in a zone of free movement of goods and people; an assumption that is in the process of being unilaterally reversed by the UK side’s decision to leave that zone. Brexit will thus devastate trade flows, and human contact, within Ireland, with incalculable consequences, something which seems hardly to have entered the minds of most UK voters on June 23.

By 'nationals of a different country' do you mean people from Ireland?

No. People from ROI, not Ireland per se. ROI is an entirely separate country, NI is not.

If so, then I don't understand that sentiment - UK & Ireland have a shared land border and it would appear that free movement between the two is a mutually agreeable thing.

With respect, it doesn't matter whether you or indeed I understand it. There are people who voted Leave because they thought it was going to assist in controlling our borders. Whether either of us can comprehend this or consider it a sensible choice, it happened. ROI is an entirely separate country and as such, allowing ROI nationals to enter GB unchecked is not a hard border. It's possible that it will still be acceptable to many people, more so than the alternative suggestion of UK citizens being compelled to show passports to travel internally, but a hard border it is not.

I meant Ireland in the same context as you used ROI - I was told earlier in thread that it was 'Ireland' not 'ROI'.

Leave voters of GB talk of 'border control' wrt having control over immigrant numbers & skill sets - whether certain regions can absorb those people, whether needs of immigrant workers & the local population will be mutually met etc, not a 'hard', armed checkpoint.

We already have 'control of borders' per se as you can only get into GB via air or sea - as such, and post 9/11, checks are in place regardless of Schengen.

The problem as far as I can make out is the connotations of language used - it's obvious on a micro scale just by reading this and other threads that different words & phrases mean different things to different people.

So, for clarity, by 'control of borders', there is no apparent need for any border control within the island of Ireland itself - NI & Ireland are unique & separate to any 'border control' that might come into effect to affect GB.
Wrt movement between Ireland (island) and GB, minimal fuss for citizens of Ireland (island) & GB transiting between the two - a 'non UK & Ireland' entry mechanism for all other people.
By minimal fuss, that would be existing rules - airlines usually insist on photographic id or passport anyway, ferries I'm unsure of.

Surely if the UK leaves the customs union, there will have to be a hard border, at least for goods and services. It will cease to be a decision for the UK and ROI government; the only alternative would be for the ROI also to leave the EU and the customs union.

I honestly can't see a way round this one. The decision about whether the border is hard or soft will not be within the remit of either the UK or the ROI (unless the ROI "eirexits"), it will be a function of the UK's status vis-à-vis the EU, which in turn is a function of the type of Brexit that is concluded ie EEA, customs union, or hard brexit.

By minimal fuss, that would be existing rules - airlines usually insist on photographic id or passport anyway, ferries I'm unsure of.

Ferries don't require passports, also discussed upthread.

Photographic id is checked by airlines (often passports but not always). It's not 'existing rules' if passengers from Ireland have to pass through some form of border check/control. Currently that doesn't exist. And note: that's passengers from Ireland. Which includes anyone, not just UK/Irish passport holders. Airlines don't check immigration rights, only whether you have a valid form of ID.

Have you ever travelled from Ireland to GB, Mango? Because your posts suggest that you haven't a clue what you're talking about, and are tossing out 'solutions' without any notion of how this would alter current practice.

I'm not 'tossing out solutions' at all - that would be ridiculous as I'm not in any way, shape or form in any position to influence anything to do with Brexit or Ireland.

All I'm doing is trying to get my head round what the problems and perceived problems actually are, and trying to understand why and how different solutions are unsuitable.

I'm doing this, not because I travel between the two (I never have), but because as a citizen of the UK and someone who's childhood & job was indirectly affected by the conflict (father in forces, I also was in forces for 20 yrs), I am interested in how peace can continue & progress within Ireland.
Also as a citizen of UK I care about how Brexit and things other than Brexit affect all areas of UK and also Ireland.

I also have quite a few friends from NI who grew up there in the 70s, 80s & 90s who have told me if their first hand experiences growing up there, and nobody (obviously) wants to go back to that.

You need to read the whole thread Mango. The issue of passports was dealt with exhaustively a few pages back. Airlines insist on IDs, ferries - never used to but haven't been on one recently.

You need a passport to fly with Ryanair from London to Scotland, but it's not a matter of Immigration Law. Just Ryanair arsing around. Other airlines will accept driving licences, work photo ID cards, bus passes.

I've taken the ferry quite a few times recently from Holyhead to Dublin (and back) and no ID was required for anyone. Just waved through once the camera read the licence plate on the car.

I meant Ireland in the same context as you used ROI - I was told earlier in thread that it was 'Ireland' not 'ROI'.

I have no comment to make on the discussion upthread, but in the context you used it, 'Ireland' was the wrong phrase to use. Because the island of Ireland includes ROI and NI, and NI is not an entirely separate country to the rest of the UK. ROI, however, is. For better or for worse.

As for the rest, you can only take that semantics, words mean different things to different people argument so far. If you're going to do that with hard border, it will become as meaningless as Brexit means Brexit.

Lastly, you would probably benefit from some research on what the current situation is. Ferries between Britain and Ireland, either side of the border, don't involve passport checks. This has been said already. People can and do travel illegally between the two that way. It becomes even more of an issue when a group of people living in ROI, EEA nationals, don't have the automatic right to be in the UK, because it creates a bigger group of people who could live illegally in the UK. This is obviously going to be of concern to people who voted Leave because they thought it would mean full control of UK borders. The question is, where they come in the wish fulfilment priority list.

No Hyacinth, it was clearly pointed out to me that my using ROI was wrong and that Ireland is correct for the independent separate country.
Ireland is also correct for the whole island, so I was told on this thread, but when using it in that context I always clarified 'island' to avoid confusion.

Regardless, I'm out of this thread again because any attempt to try to understand by asking questions or enquiring about things without having 100% indisputable knowledge on the subject is apparently not permissible.

Thanks to those who took the time to clarify and explain things.

As I said mango I am not commenting on the discussions you had upthread, but 'Ireland' was still incorrect in the context you used it, because you needed to make clear which definition you were using. 'Ireland' can refer to the state comprising the 26 counties or the island itself, and a rather significant minority of the latter is not in any way shape or form a separate country to the rest of the UK. Despite some people's plans to make them show passports when travelling internally. It matters, a huge amount, to be clear which geographical entities you're talking about in a discussion about where hard borders are supposed to be placed.

Do spend your sulk time doing a bit of research. FWIW, I don't think it's the lack of knowledge that's a problem, but rather the failure to read the explanations given to you. Maybe reflect on why people who've spent time trying to make you understand would find it irritating to have to wade through dozens of posts by you effectively saying 'but I can't see any problem'.

Hyacinth, you are unnecessarily rude & obnoxious in your posts towards me - your prerogative to do so, obviously, but it's getting wearing.

However, I am bothering my ass to respond to your latest post because it is unfair to 'pull me up' on my use of 'Ireland', when I have done my utmost to stick to the correct geographical descriptors to avoid unintentional offence.

Ireland' was still incorrect in the context you used it, because you needed to make clear which definition you were using. 'Ireland' can refer to the state comprising the 26 counties or the island itself, and a rather significant minority of the latter is not in any way shape or form a separate country to the rest of the UK.

I made it very clear.
Ireland = Ireland (independent country)
Ireland (island) = Ireland & NI
GB = the island comprising Scotland, England & Wales
UK = GB & NI

I was clear throughout my latter posts - I was told to not use ROI as the independent country is Ireland.

Maybe what you don't see Mango is that anyone from the EU will still be able to go and live snd work in ROI as they please post-Brexit (since ROI is part of the EU).
There would need to be a hard border between ROI and NI so that us EU 'citizens' are prevented from casually being waved in into the UK post Brexit. Because to go into the UK we'll need some sort of visa/work permit/ whatever.

Thought you were off? But I'm afraid I'm not interested in what you think of my manners. I'm not one to give house room to tone trolling.

Also, looking back at your discussions upthread, you were actually told quite a number of things. Including that Ireland means both ROI and the island of Ireland. Which it does, and the one is no more or less correct than the other. The fact that you only use Ireland to mean the state doesn't mean you're right to do so. So, once again, you need to make it clear which 'Ireland' you're talking about. You don't do that by coming up with your own code of what you'll use when.

I note, incidentally, with interest, that you have decided to focus on this issue rather than why you're demonstrably wrong about already having controls of borders as you can only get into GB via sea or air. Anyone would think there was a reason for that. Still, beats admitting what a clusterfuck Brexit stands to be for NI, I suppose.