So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

There was freedom of movement and ability to live and work between RoI, N I and UK long before they joined the EU.

Well. Partially true. There was freedom of movement before those countries joined the EU, for British and Irish citizens. What there wasn't was freedom of movement per se: citizens of EEA countries didn't enjoy freedom of movement between the two, even when legally residing in one of them, and their non-EEA family members certainly didn't. The border has also been rather harder in the past than it is now.

And this is where the situation will be very different to what has gone before: unless we retain freedom of movement, we stand to have on one side of the border freedom of movement for EEA nationals plus their family members on one side, and potentially none of that on the other. With a border you can currently saunter over unbothered by anyone other than the mobile phone companies changing you over as soon as you get anywhere near the thing.

Good thing the EU has clamped down on roaming charges then, eh, Hyacinth?

Oh.

Snort.

Seriously though, I was in Portstewart last year and got an 02 IE text. Miles from the border! Its a farking disgrace.

Sounds like a right pain when you are close to a border. (Which is one of the reasons why the EU decided to regulate, of course.)

Thanks for the link, howabout. I really was interested in what you meant about the status quo moving. Did you mean in terms of cracking down on tax avoidance?

So how are NI and ROI going to deal with energy?

What with their grids being connected. So in theory if a border goes up in terms of trade then this is going to be affected.

Anyone who remembers the border during the Troubles - technically you could move freely - in practical reality, many country lanes there were blocked off with great road blocks. You'd see heavily armed soldiers walking through the fields. You had to cross at checkpoints and I was always scared of getting shot - there used to be shootouts at checkpoints.
The people who lived there got used to it, but I never did.

I remember going from North to South on business before the GFA and hating how military the border was. (And don't get me started on seeing the fortified police stations )

This would've been in about 1987 - so technically after us joining the EEC but before the full Single Market. I made the mistake of flying in to Belfast and out of Dublin with hired projectors (I was working for ICI and doing Product presentations) and it hadn't crossed my mind to get formal documentation to "import" it back in to the UK. I got away with it after explaining & shoeing the hire paperwork (iirc - might just have been the hire stickers ) - but that's exactly the sort of bureaucracy and paperwork that we could be letting ourselves back in for.

Change to the status quo in terms of attitudes to tax avoidance globally, in terms of the "EU marketplace" which for many companies will look very different minus the UK, in terms of the political climate in the US, in terms of the potential opportunities presented to countries like Ireland and Poland from Brexit.

I see a lot of commentary comparing the UK Brexit position to Remain but very little acknowledging the impact on the "EU excluding the UK".

The EU without the UK may well get along fine - no more whinging from them and wanting special deals.

Agreed, It could in fact be better for all parties which is why I think talk of the Brexit growth penalty is premature.

Newsnight did a good 15 minutes on this last night and Simon Jack on Businesslive yesterday made the most telling point re Apple - they can't repatriate their profits back to the US because they would incur too much tax and any tax the EU recover via Ireland may be offset against the potential US liability.

It seems to me that this is now mostly a fight over who gets the tax money, the US or the EU. The political bell has already tolled for Apple and other large corporations when it comes to effective 0.005% tax rates.

The EU excluding the UK will be just fine, they still have 9 of the word's top 30 economies in one trading bloc.

Simply by considering an appeal they look guilty in my view.
So, you are accused of a crime, you say you are innocent, so must be guilty?

The thing that confuses me is that the 'Double Irish' as a tax avoidance measure has been well known for many years and available to most/many companies. I am not sure why it is considered a 'sweetheart' deal with Apple and not all the other companies using it?

Agreed carol and I doubt the Commission seriously thinks its decision will stand. Even they talk about the possibility of other EU countries considering whether they have collected everything to offset the Irish "liability". Also there is the possibility of the US looking at transfer pricing for US based R&D. In short the "Apple judgement" could be the "banana war" for our age.

No return to hard border

Before a visit to Belfast on Thursday, Davis vowed there would be “no return to the past” in terms of armed checkpoints and border checks along the UK’s only land frontier with an EU state.

As far as having armed check-points that must be good news.

“We are clear we do not want a hard border – no return to the past – and no unnecessary barriers to trade. What we will do is deliver a practical solution that will work in everyone’s interests, and I look forward to opening the conversation about how that should operate with my colleagues today.”

I await his solution with some interest. It might not be within his gift to say this - being dependent on 27 other EU countries.

“Agriculture is a vital part of the Northern Ireland economy, and the government will match the current level of annual payments that the sector receives through the direct payment scheme until 2020, providing certainty,” Davis said.

Of how much value is this guarantee? Assuming Art. 50 is triggered early next year, that takes us to early 2019. If we take this guarantee as being to the end of 2020, that is only two year's money guaranteed, which does not seem a lot.

Given that the Republic will still have freedom of movement with the rest of the EU and David Davis doesn't want a hard border between it and Northern Ireland, should we presume that the hard border will be at the ports and airports on mainland Britain?

It all depends on how they define 'hard border'. If it's one with armed guards as during the Troubles, or as in e.g. the old E/W German border then no, absolutely no one wants a return to that.

If it's one with a customs post, and a pound which lorries are waved into whilst their loads and paperwork are inspected - IMO that could be exactly what happens.

I will be interested to see how David Davis deals with it - he hasn't as yet given an impression of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

No, although in fairness there isn't actually a way to marry all the things promised even if he were a genius. No hard border vs control of migration is not a circle that can be squared. I note he uses the phrases 'no return to the past', but a lot of the Troubles was during the EU period anyway, and no 'unnecessary' barriers to trade. What is necessary is of course a matter of opinion.

A lot of the Troubles were more during the EEC period, I would have thought, rather than the EU period e.g. post 1992?

Can they put a customs post on every minor road and lane?

The smuggling is going to be even more epic than it already is.

Both I guess, the worst was the 70s it's true. And no patty of course they can't. There were enough weapons smuggled over even when it was pretty hard!

I was born in 1970 so I was a child in the 70s but I really don't remember the 80s being better than the 70s. Donegal is very rural and you could sort of ignore the Troubles until you had to go to Derry, which was the nearest big town, and across the border. Derry is where the Troubles kicked off in '68. Battle of Bogside in '69 and Bloody Sunday '72 were both in Derry, but it was still very grim in the 80s - riots, military patrols, sectarian violence were standard.

Unless they're contemplating making the coast the border, some kind of customs points are inevitable, surely. They may not be military, they may not have guard towers but a check point is a check point. There must be also be fences and traffic stops surely? If the Tories are determined to 'control their borders', there's no way round this.