So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

The deadliest years were in the 70s, 1972 being the worst. 500 dead. What followed was no picnic but thank God or whatever you believe in it didn't continue in that vein. I link to a list of those who died below, because we should remember.

cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/

I'm not disputing that, I'm aware of the history. Surely everyone knows that the highest death toll was in the 70s.

The point I'm trying to make is that on a day to day level there wasn't any major change between the 70s and 80s Derry. To imply the 80s were better gives a very misleading picture of 80s NI. I don't recall any significant difference in daily life.

'Only' 69 killed in '84 compared to 81 in '78... It was all grim.

Right. I'm not quite sure I agree with the assessment that on a day to day level there wasn't any major change, because hearing of basically every day is different to hearing of more like one a week. Nor can I concur that implying the 80s were better gives a misleading picture, because of course it's better when there are only a fraction of the deaths. That's undeniable. Half of the Troubles fatalities occurred during a five year period in the 70s after all.

It would only be misleading if one assumed that meant things were hunky dorey, but I think pretty much everyone can see for themselves that dozens instead of hundreds of death is still pretty awful. Your final sentence is most certainly correct and an apt summing up: it was all grim.

I said very clearly I was born in '70 so I didn't spend that decade reading the newspapers, weighing up the death toll. I thought I made it clear that I was giving an impressionistic view of the conditions in Derry as a child and young person.

If you think I was denying that the violence was worse in the 70s then we're talking at cross purposes.

I'm aware of the high death toll in the 70s which was worst between '71 and '76. After that it dropped and was consistently between 57 and 121 from '77 until '95 when it started to fall. Some of the worst years were 81, 82 & 88.

Yes it seems we are. To be honest I'm disinclined to pursue this sub-discussion any further, I don't think we need several more posts on the issue. We're not shedding any great light on the question of what happens next for NI, which I say whilst acknowledging that that didn't stop me posting about it.

I thought it was already over tbh. I have no desire to argue with you, I've
found your excellent posts on this thread very interesting.

Likewise.

I'm nonplussed as to what to make of Davis' visit to Ireland last week.

He apparently underlined his aim for 'open borders' at the same time as emphasising the importance of controlling immigration, stating 'we have to take control of our borders'.

So how do you control open borders?

I imagine he has in mind a hard border between the island of Ireland and Great Britain i.e. border checks if you are coming over by ferry or air.

Seems rather discriminatory against UK citizens in NI, mind you, not to have freedom of movement within the UK - I'd imagine it would have to be tested in the courts.

I'm nonplussed as to what to make of Davis' visit to Ireland last week

That should say either 'nonplussed by' or 'uncertain as to what to make of'.

Scuse my poor editing.

I imagine he has in mind a hard border between the island of Ireland and Great Britain i.e. border checks if you are coming over by ferry or air.

Quite, I mentioned that above, but a) that's not technically an open border and b) how will Unionists feel about custom checks between NI and the rest of the U.K.? If he simply means an open border between NI and ROI why not say so?

Presumably because he'd get nailed for proposing it! Some of the more hardline Loyalists who did vote Leave are quite pleased with the idea of a hard border. They would be correspondingly unhappy with anything that lumps them in with ROI and separates them from the rest of the UK. Quite understandably actually. You may have guessed from the thread that I'm not politically or emotionally committed to either a united Ireland or NI within the UK, but I'd be rather fucked off myself to have internal borders introduced within the UK with not so much as a manifesto proposal to legitimise them! Although I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to tell us it's democracy so everyone will just have to go along with it.

Although I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to tell us it's democracy so everyone will just have to go along with it.

We've already had someone on the thread a good few pages back saying that having to show passports is the system already in operation, so what's the difference? She said this because the airlines insist on ID, and for RyanAir that has to be a passport, although others accept bus passes, driving licences, work ID cards, etc. The airlines insist on ID for journeys within Great Britain too, and as far as I know, there are no hard borders between England, Wales and Scotland.

Yes, that was a favourite. Definitely up there with miscounting the number of times the EU is mentioned in GFA.

The difference of course being that you can walk or drive over the borders between England, Wales and Scotland, so you're not being forced to show ID simply because some of the transport companies ask for it. Whereas if you want to to between one of them and NI, those options are not available. You'd be obliged to use an ID-requiring mode of transport. Unless you're a bloody good swimmer.

The difference also being that it's an ID check by airlines, not a check by UKBA to verify your right to enter the UK. You show your ID when boarding at the gate, and you don't have to queue at UK Border when you land.

And I travel regularly by ferry between Britain and Ireland, and have never been asked for any form of ID.

Me neither although I don't get the ferry that much.

The Irish gvt has the right to request valid official photo-id verifying your nationality here

Yes, caroldecker We have already read the links about photo ID. "You do not need [emphasis mine] to have a passport in order to enter the other country." It goes on to say "it is advisable to travel with your passport."

So, since about 2009, border controls have existed between the Island of Ireland and mainland UK, with travellers from both NI and Ireland required to have identity/passports when travelling. are your exact words. "Required"does not equal "advisable" in any of my dictionaries.

Having already been shown that you misunderstood, you are now trying to tell us what we already know. An apology with the words " I have learnt something I didn't know" would have gone down a little better, IMO.

Transport providers (ferry companies and airlines) may require ID. As has been noted, some do so even within the UK. Not having a driving licence, I have to show my passport when flying from Wales to Scotland, for instance. I don't have to do so if I travel the same route by train.

So what about if you travel between, say, Wales and Ireland on your own craft? (I know leisure sailors who do this.)

This is what the Government website www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk/notice-8-sailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk says about leaving and arriving on UK shores:

"Are there any immigration requirements when I arrive in the UK?
Anyone on board who is not an EU national must get a UKBA officer’s permission to enter the UK from a place other than the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands. As the person responsible, you must make sure that anyone requiring immigration clearance (including yourself if appropriate) obtains the necessary permission to enter.

If there is anyone on board requiring immigration clearance, they will need to contact the nearest UKBA office by phone to arrange clearance. The National Yachtline will be able to advise on how to do this."

and

"Are there any immigration requirements when I depart from the UK?
You do not need to notify an Immigration officer of any voyage where the first port of call overseas is expected to be in the Channel Islands, the Irish Republic or elsewhere in the EU."

I read this as meaning that if everyone on board is an EU national, no immigration notifications are necessary when arriving, and that none are needed when sailing for a destination in the EU. Note that this is true despite the UK and the ROI not being in the Schengen area.

What will happen once the UK leaves the EU? I will try to get my sailing acquaintances to nag their MPs about this.

What will happen once the UK leaves the EU? I will try to get my sailing acquaintances to nag their MPs about this.

All the sorts of nitty-gritty details which will have to be sorted out, long before we can start talking about trade deals.

Peregrina I thank you for your greater knowledge of the issue than the Irish judiciary:
The nature of the Irish controls was described by an Irish High Court judge, Mr Justice Gerard Hogan, in the following terms:

"The practical result of this is that all persons arriving by air from the United Kingdom face Irish immigration controls. While in theory both Irish and British citizens are entitled to arrive here free from immigration control by virtue of the common travel area, increasingly in practice such passengers who arrive by air from the United Kingdom are required to produce their passports (or, at least, some other form of acceptable identity document) in order to prove to immigration officers that they are either Irish or British citizens who can avail of the common travel area

or, at least, some other form of acceptable identity document
Irish judiciary.

Required to have passport.

"..or, at least, some other form of acceptable identity document..."

Which is Stena Line's case can be a utiily bill.
www.stenaline.co.uk/FAQs/passports-and-visas/im-a-british-irish-citizen-do-i-need-a-passport-to-travel

And for those of us not travelling with Ryanair, (where we must have passports, even within Great Britain, despite there being no law to make us have passports), floundering around for some sort of identity document can be a time consuming irritation but probably no more. For a firm importing or exporting across a hard border, missing or wrong documentation can mean that the goods don't get shipped at all, which translates to money lost.