So the Good Friday Agreement? How do LEAVE propose to sort? (on Brexit and Northern Ireland - title amended by MNHQ)

[RedToothBrush]

Go on. Lets have some answers.
Can we have a proper talk about how we can stop this affront to democracy and ripping up of a peace plan?

Shouting 'What about NI?' does not get you any answers because no-one quite knows what the question is.

And there lies the problem.

Google it.

Well.

Sinn Fein don't recognise Westminster as the legitimate government. This is why the don't take their seats in the House of Commons and why they think the devolved government is so important. They accept this, as a compromise rather than insisting they law making comes from Dublin.

If Westminster imposes Brexit on NI it completely undermines this international agreement that Ireland and the UK both signed up to.

There's your starter.

I agree that NI is an important issue, but since 44% ( I think) of NI voted out and at least some of their politicians were out, then I don't see why either remainers or leavers in England & Wales need to come up with a solution?

And if voting out was such as disaster for NI then why did 44% of their population vote for it?

And in any event, isn't it for the politicians job to come up with these solutions, or do you imagine that Stormont and the Westminster Parliament are scouring the interest for ideas?

Internet not interest.

And if voting out was such as disaster for NI then why did 44% of their population vote for it?

Well

There is a big section of the population who are Unionists...

then I don't see why either remainers or leavers in England & Wales need to come up with a solution?

Do you think international treaties matter? Should international treaties be ripped up unilaterally? If 56% voted to Remain, surely that is sufficient mandate for the Remain vote in NI? If apparently a 52% vote is considered to be a mandate for the whole UK.

no-one quite knows what the question is.

WHY THE FUCK NOT? This is a big deal. Something very much worth thinking about before casting your vote.

Politics in NI is a total basket case anyway. Few of them are genuinely interested in making a difference, just petty point scoring eg the NAMA debacle. No matter what happens,NI will end up with the begging bowl out pleading "special case".

Yes there are a large number of unionists. But I would presume that people who actually live in NI are better placed to consider the implications of leaving the EU than those of us in E&W.

And 56% is obviously a majority, but the referendum was run as a UK wide one, and not each individual part.

If the actual result had been remain, but England voted out as a majority, would you consider that England had a mandate to leave the rest of the UK so we could exit the EU? I don't think anyone would have been calling for that? Nigel Farage maybe if that had happened, English residents tat voted out would have been told they had to abide by a majority vote.

Politics in NI is a total basket case anyway.

That's something I wouldn't disagree with.

Peregrina I don't really understand the point you're making. Of course international agreements are important. The point I'm making is it's the politicians who will come up with a solution, and therefore berating out voters for not having a solution is rather odd?

As pp said, we are where we are. And whilst agreeing that NI is an important issue, I don't think it is realistic or sensible to think it would trump issues closer to home for most not-NI voters. So I don't really see that shouting at people who are trying to engage with the issues is very constructive.

Seriously, does anyone want to see a resumption of violence in N Ireland, and soldiers patrolling the streets? Or IRA bombing campaigns, in both NI and the rest of the UK? Or situations like 'Bloody Sunday'? That is what the question is about.

DIL's family are Irish and never thought a Peace agreement was possible. To see that peace might be thrown away almost by accident is an appalling catastrophe.

As pp said, we are where we are.

You mean you wilfully miss the bit that bit where we are, might be back to violence and murder. With the army on the streets.

Oh ok.

That minor detail.

Its ok though, as its not England and you don't have to live with it.

Except if someone decides to bomb your town next time.

Yes. Unimportant.

I really don't see there being a return to violence. No one apart from a very small minority want that. SF certainly don't as they're fucked in the south if that happens.

The rubicon is crossed now.

It's not just the threat of violence. Even if it doesn't come to that, it's a massive constitutional crisis.

Who says its going to the Republicans?

Who says the solution won't end up with the North leaving the UK and making a United Ireland?

It could be the Unionists who end up unhappy then.

Oh wait, that'll be ok as it'll no longer be our problem will it? It'll be the Republic's...

It's very difficult to see what solutions the Politicians can come up with. If TM goes ahead and then takes NI out of the EU then as far as I can see , the Good Friday Agreement collapses, which is effectively tearing up an international treaty.

These two articles, both written before the Referendum explain the worries well:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/northern-ireland-fear-brexit-conflict-good-friday-agreement-eu

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12161332/Could-Brexit-disturb-the-peace-in-Northern-Ireland.html

I don't think anyone here is shouting, and I don't think anyone expects posters on an Internet forum to have answers, but I damn well do expect the Politicians to have thought of it and now be sweating blood and guts to try to find a workable solution.

No-one wants to see violence return to NI. But if voters had all studied the history and politics of Ireland and had all concluded that leaving the EU would threaten the GFA, do you think that most non-NI leave voters would have said "oh, I want to vote leave because I think it would be best for me and my family and the community I live in, but I had better put the needs of people in NI first and so I will vote remain?" I don't think they would have and I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to do have done so.

I also don't think it's for non involved leave voters to think they have the solution and it's not logical to say that they should have just because they voted to leave the EU. If this does cause problems in Irish politics, I think there are people far better placed to offer solutions.

That's not to say it isn't an issue people shouldn't be concerned about and try to understand.

Is there a solution to this that doesn't involve reversing the Brexit decision?

Genuine question. I've done some reading on NI but I don't believe it's on the curriculum to learn and most people won't have known about this - although many would likely either rate this as not important enough to change their vote or not close enough. Regardless, the vote has happened - it wouldn't matter if thousands of people would have changed their votes over this, Brexit will happen.

Ideally, NI will accept that they had a part in the vote too, and leave with the rest of the U.K. without any affect on the agreement. I'm not sure there is a viable alternative if that doesn't happen - perhaps its something Remain should have campaigned about? But it doesn't matter now. Brexit has been decided. No amount of hating the decision or arguing that where we are is an awful place to be will affect that it looks very likely that Brexit will happen, and whilst Remain voters will hope that it never does and over the years opinion changes, we need to plan as if it will happen.

And if voting out was such as disaster for NI then why did 44% of their population vote for it?

They didn't. 44% of around a two thirds turnout voted to leave, which gives us a rather different figure. I know this point has been made before, but in this context I feel it's quite important: around 350,000 people in NI voted Leave, out of an electorate of 1.2 million.

And on the disaster point, that is exactly why at least some of them voted Leave: because they want things to go sufficiently tits up that reunification becomes a more attractive option than remaining in the UK. There is a reason a number of leading republicans were pro Leave. If you don't support the existence of NI, why would you want it to succeed?This is very significant because there's a non-ideological group in NI politics who make their constitutional choices on pragmatic grounds. There are economic unionists now, there could be economic nationalists if the grass starts to look greener on the other side of the border.

Don't think it occurred to the leavers Brexit would have a knock on effect to either Scotland or NI - they just wanted to leave and make make Britain great again !

I am astonished that they didn't think of the position in Scotland, with SNP taking all but 3 seats in the 2015 election.

N Ireland, is different, people don't understand it, and often don't seem to want to understand it.

I wish people would wake up to the fact that the Great in Britain is a geographical term, as opposed to little Britain, Brittany. Other countries just call this country Big Britain.

Ideally, NI will accept that they had a part in the vote too, and leave with the rest of the U.K. without any affect on the agreement.

How, exactly? Because I must say, it's not immediately obvious.

I see no problem with the Good Friday agreement or with continued co-operation in Ireland.
I also see very little desire on either side to re-start violence.
A lot of noise from the Project Fear posters whose initial claims have fallen flat and are looking for other reasons to pout.