LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

[Surferjet]

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

Click this link to view the response online:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

This petition has over 100,000 signatures. The Petitions Committee will consider it for a debate. They can also gather further evidence and press the government for action.

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Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

To unsubscribe from this petition: petition.parliament.uk/signatures/23408528/unsubscribe?token=N5XWEqj08juvvjUWe76

i respect democracy

What was democratic about allowing commonwealth citizens a vote in the referendum but not EU citizens who have lived here for decades? And denying 16/17 year olds the vote when the result will likely affect them for 70+ years?

Democracy did not end on June 23rd. Remainers are entitled to keep on putting their case forward. Especially given the tiny majority, poorly thought out and organised referendum, following an awful dog whistling campaign.

Also the fact that so many leavers wanted a return of our "sovereignty". Well we live in a representative democracy where parliament is sovereign. IMO, this sovereign parliament should now, taking the 37% of the electorate leave and 35% remain votes into account, debate and vote on what the best course of action for the UK is. Also taking into account Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Leavers can't have it both ways - a return to "sovereignty" and then a rejection of that very sovereignty. The fact that David Cameron shot himself in the foot by offering a referendum in the first place, setting the minimum at 50% and then verbally promising it would be binding does, sadly, come into it.

Very good article by A C Grayling on why taking the referendum result as advisory rather than binding (which it legally was) is not undemocratic.

Kaija

I'm not UKIP.
I'm Tory.

Really, Surferjet? I admit I'm surprised. Your views seem very much aligned with those of UKIP.

It's not so unusual to find trump apologists amongst kippers, but (mercifully) rare amongst tories.

Really.
I take baths & everything, you'd be surprised.

< off to bed >

Baths?

It's a joke.

Never mind.

Doesn't stop a debate but you may still need to wait sometime for Art 50 to be invoked. According to The Independent earlier invoking Art 50 could be postponed until end 2017 . Their source said that was because of the setting up of the 2 new Whitehall departments & no one even knows what to ask the EU for.

PS At the moment Trump is losing in the polls & the only question is by how much

I will never understand why Leavers - those great proponents of democracy - expect Remainers to just shut up, now that the referendum has taken place.

Annoying as it might be, it's not how democracy works.

If you lose you lose, doesn't matter if it's by 2% or 50% - I respect democracy.

There is a huge difference between democracy and cricket.

"If you lose you lose, doesn't matter if it's by 2% or 50% - I respect democracy."

No, you only say that now because you think you "won", there certainly isn't a mandate for a hard exit from the EU.

You only respect democracy when it gives you the answer you want too, when the debate was going on all the leavers kept pointing to the fact that the EU had out voted in the UK in 10 % of votes. So the UK was on the winning side 90% of the time, but that democracy isn't good enough for you, but 2% is?

What was democratic about allowing commonwealth citizens a vote in the referendum but not EU citizens who have lived here for decades?

I agree. I know at least one who's lived abroad for most of his adult life but retains a British passport, happened to be working here on a contract, so was able to vote, and voted Leave. I know a number of EU citizens working in the NHS, who had no say.

It makes me furious. People who are making a major contribution to the country's well being, have paid twenty odd years of tax, and have made their homes here have no say; a person who's paid at most two years tax, regards their home as elsewhere did.

Yes - did Cameron actually want the UK to leave ?

That response says absolutely nothing of substance in case you missed the point of the response. Its to shut people up. Nothing more.

The Brexit Department haven't got a fucking clue on what they are doing and are only just starting to realise just what their mission impossible actually is.

FWIW, the UK are financially committed to paying EU membership fees until 31st Dec 2019 because the EU budget for the term is already set(and therefore not feasible to get a refund against an early exit on that). It therefore does not financial sense to invoke a50 before the end of next year with a 1st Jan 2020 exit date at the very earliest.

In terms of long term investment plans, I think we will have to set an a50 date when that becomes clear too, to fill the gap, but the reality is that either way we are between a rock and a hard place because of our EU budget commitments. And since we actually haven't even got the staff in place to manage Brexit, a delay until the end of next year, in many ways is in our best interest under the circumstances.

If any Brexiteer would like to offer me a reason as to why we should invoke a50 earlier, I'm all ears.

Its about time, Leavers started to have some realistic expectations in their heads about the process and beaucracy involved and how its not a deliberate process to screw over Brexit, just as much as Remainers should 'suck up Brexit'.

Westminster politics (and EU politics) move at a certain pace, I'm not quite sure why people think that Brexit politics should be on a high speed path instead. The reality we are more liking to fuck it up, if we try and do it all on fast forward.

What is this democracy you speak of so respectfully, surferjet?

1. Just 37% of the voting population voted to leave
2. The "leave" manifesto promises, all 350 gazillion of them - have been proven as bullshit unsubstantiated and unfeasible
3. The main leave campaign leaders abandoned their posts as soon as it became clear people expected them to deliver on their promises
4. Nigel Farage in particular has had his performance in EU parliament widely circulated, clearly showing that he doesn't have the UK's interests at heart in any shape or form
5. Actual economic effects - refer to other thread, this is beyond bad irrespective of a few delusionals and exceptions
6. Brexit vote lauded by the globe's biggest fascists and racists, no doubt contributing to many decent but uninformed leavers now distancing themselves from their vote
7. Realisation of, surely, the entire UK population and rest of planet that the UK government is actually incapable of delivering on the "original" Brexit agenda, whatever the outcome of the vote
8. Wake up that pension are screwed by impact on bond yields, new call for triple lock on state pensions to be ditched rather that stuffing the younger generation with the bill, property prices stalling etc etc etc. All heavily related to a potential Brexit
9. UK sovereignty, a veritable pinnacle of the Leave cause is now apparently an inconvenient afterthought as the Brexiters attempt to bypass basic parliamentary process. Aren't you at least a little embarrassed by this?

And you think that an uncontrolled brexit now is preferable to the hypothetical alternative you float of civil unrest propelled by the disproportionately aged population of leavers? I beg to differ.

What exactly do you think the landscape of your beloved British democracy looks like today? The agenda is very much changed by the revealing of truth and reality. I think a Brexit vote based on fact, to be debated an ratified through our sovereign parliamentary process is a pretty democratic way forward.

If I was a Leaver I'd be distinctly unimpressed by that petition response. It is totally meaningless. It wouldn't inspire any confidence in me at all.

What is this democracy you speak of so respectfully, surferjet

I was asked one simple question on June 23rd 2016. Do I want to leave the EU or remain part of it.
I voted to leave - as did the majority.
Therefore we leave.

David Cameron announced back in 2013 that if the Tories got back in he would give the people 'a simple in / out referendum' - that's one of the main reasons he got back in!
I wasn't asked; 'do you want to leave the EU in principle, but in practice in ain't ever gonna happen you deluded idiot' - I voted in good faith that my wishes, should they form the majority, would be acted upon.

It's not my fault the government was taken by surprise, they knew 2 bloody years ago that a referendum was on the cards so they should have pencilled in some kind of plan?
They clearly didn't, which just goes to show how arrogant they are.
Well the vote didn't go their way but that's not my problem, it's theirs.
Don't give me a vote on the condition that it's meaningless unless the government agree with it - how is that democracy?

Sapphire, that's what I think. I am surprised at the OP getting excited over it in a positive way.

It says that the OP doesn't have a clue about when they are having the wool pulled over their eyes.

Its all back to the 22nd June level of depressing, with people with starry eyed notions of the glorious future.

If you want Brexit that statement is NOT a good one.

Sorry surfer, but as its not an overwhelming mandate, that has to be remembered too.

Almost half voted in, just over half voted out. Its a majority, but not quite enough to make the decisions that you want,

Sorry to burst your bubble, or to use the phraseology of your exit peers, suck it up buttercup.

It's not my fault the government was taken by surprise, they knew 2 bloody years ago that a referendum was on the cards so they should have pencilled in some kind of plan?
They clearly didn't, which just goes to show how arrogant they are.
Well the vote didn't go their way but that's not my problem, it's theirs.

The Leave campaigners didn't come up with a whiff of a plan either?! And when they won - as much to their surprise, clearly, as anyone's - they all buggered off, and left it all for someone else to deal. People who didn't even want it in the first place:

Do you call that 'arrogant'? Or is maybe 'incompetent' better?

Small - Parliament agreed to the referendum without any restrictions on the % of votes required to carry the referendum. The bill that was agreed in Dec 2015 quite clearly states that a majority vote would win. So your idea that the amount of the vote to leave has anything to do with being 'not quite enough to make the decisions that you want' is just incorrect. I really can't see why you are gloating.

They didn't 'all bugger off' - the dowager. DC was PM and should have gone ahead and implemented Brexit but he buggered off - a remainer. Nigel Farage resigned - not in the government and nothing to do with drawing up an exit plan. It was up to the new PM who she appointed to lead the leave negotiations and she has appointed quite a few leave campaigners to these roles. It is for the government to draw up a plan not campaigners.

That's very convenient, isn't it.

Johnson opted out of running for PM, and Gove acted in a way that ensured he could never be trusted an inch.

And, yes, Farage completely buggered off. He is an utter weasel.

Who campaigns for something without even a vague clue about what to do, if you win?

If you're personally happy with that outcome, that's fine. Many Remainers are not, and it's why this has had such a fall out.