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Brexit

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

999 replies

Surferjet · 12/08/2016 08:29

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

To unsubscribe from this petition: petition.parliament.uk/signatures/23408528/unsubscribe?token=N5XWEqj08juvvjUWe76

Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

Click this link to view the response online:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

This petition has over 100,000 signatures. The Petitions Committee will consider it for a debate. They can also gather further evidence and press the government for action.

The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

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OP posts:
dontneedthesunshine · 18/08/2016 12:37

I wonder what the mood would be in the EU if we didn't leave after all this? Goodness knows there's reason enough to reject the decision, but how would the rest of the EU feel about us lingering on?

SoyYo · 18/08/2016 12:38

Thank You Peregrina it is said from my heart more than my head.

Corcory I am sorry to tell you that the "Turkey" argument was given to me FACE TO FACE by the very Ian Duncan-Smith, I retorted with the Remain argument but he was adamant that the EU had done the deal to give Turkey citizens unrestricted access to Europe in exchange for stopping the refugee hoardes coming. He lied so much, to my face. He had been brought to my (UKIP/Leave town) as a PR exercise to "thank" supporters so I don't think he was expecting a well educated, highly articulate "immigrant" when he knocked on my door and to give him his due, he did try and rebuke my arguments. Not very successfully but I can see how many people would have been taken in by the lies...I even watched the "Leave" movie FFS!! Just to vote with a conscience and see if I could be persuaded to change my mind....
Would you like any of my anecdotes of people I know who voted Leave and the reasons they gave me?

SapphireStrange · 18/08/2016 12:38

we would still have quite a bit left over to spend on things like the NHS

Because people like Boris Johnson just LOVE the NHS. A small state is at the heart of Tory ideology, or it was last time I looked.

'It also didn't take much listening to find out that the leave campaign wanted all existing EU citizens to have the right to stay in the UK.' And how do you feel they're doing on that so far?

'It didn't take much to find out that the leave campaign wanted the farmers and other subsidised sectors not to loose out.' So far we have a hastily cobbled-together promise of what amounts to about a year's honouring of subsidies.

Bearbehind · 18/08/2016 12:41

That may be true corcory, but the things you've listed are all 'wants' not promises.

Where did any debates discuss how immigration would actually be controlled or how subsidised sectors would actually not loose out in the event of Brexit?

The reality is they didn't as, 2 months on, we still have no answers to those questions so we're back to Leave being a roll of the dice.

Corcory · 18/08/2016 12:45

Globetrotter - Weasel words - that's your answer when your wrong!!!!
Sapphire - You have just given me another reason for vote leave! I had no idea that the planned EU army could conscript or citizens.
SoyYo - Yes IDS is correct there is an agreement that would let certain Turkish citizens free movement to the EU and there is now a big problem with this as regards the recent up rising and the dictatorial way in which the current Turkish government has reacted and their suggestion that they might reinstate the death penalty. But he was not saying that Turkey was going to join the EU immediately. That was my point.

SapphireStrange · 18/08/2016 12:48

Sapphire - You have just given me another reason for vote leave! I had no idea that the planned EU army could conscript or citizens.

Grin Grin Good one. That really made me laugh.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2016 12:51

Leave did use the 'Make America Great Again' strategy.
You might have noticed the heavy use of Boris turning into Churchill. There were also less obvious harking back to WWII glories in several adverts and the heavy use of the image of Churchill himself as well as Bevin.
There was a hell of a lot of use of the 'flag waving' propaganda with Union Jacks everywhere in their promotion.

If you disagree with that, then that's even more worrying because it means its so subconscious that you missed it being there.

It was. It was deliberate. The propaganda on display was text book. It was of a high standard.

I did point it out at the time, which when it was spelled out shocked some (and annoyed because they didn't like it being laid out quite so bluntly that this was designed to dupe people).

As for organised Leave strategies and plans; whilst I appreciate it is the recess, every single thing I've seen, when you poke it even a tiny bit with a stick to see if it holds up as a credible idea it instantly falls apart as more holey than a sieve.

This really isn't good enough. We need to have more than this even over the summer.

I am fed up of the narrative that Remain voters want Brexit to fall. That's nonsense. We are stuck with this shower of shit and somehow we have to make the best of it, so being proven wrong about how much of a fucking disaster it is would suit me just fine. I would happily eat my words if someone can come up with something workable, that answers many of the concerns and criticisms of the EU but also ensures the best interests of our country's future.

This is the problem though, the sheer lack of understanding of what the EU does EVEN NOW. And the sheer lack of understanding of what Westminster does and the limits of power of government. And who is responsible for what - and more importantly who is responsible for poor policy and poor living standards for many. A lack of understanding that I don't blame and think leave voters are responsible for - I don't think they are stupid. Its not their job to understand it.

Its the Gisele Stuarts, Boris Johnsons, David Davies, Liam Foxs et al who have ALL since the Brexit vote come out with comments of such staggering stupidity and ignorance of what they were trying to achieve that I am in total disbelief. People dealing with trade deals and EU legislation who have been shown up to not understand the workings of that in any detail or level at all. Davies was supposed to be the guy in the Conservatives MPs with the best knowledge and had the best ideas and strategy for Brexit and it took about a week for it to come out he didn't understand basic terms never mind complex EU legislation.

Only a couple of people in the entire House of Commons seemed to show that understanding. I can name two; Rory Stewart (Tory who I bet most of you haven't even heard of) who talked about the different between political will and political capacity in an after dinner speech which received a paragraph in the press and Nick Clegg who wrote a prophetic newspaper article published on the Wednesday before the referendum (and sounded a lot like a post I wrote on MN the previous Thursday - grrrr) which talked about power vacuums and a lack of plan. I note here that Nick Clegg has experience as a trade negotiator and working as an MEP and Rory Stewart has experience with the Foreign Office trying to repair the power vacuums that emerged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Davies, Fox and Johnson are already in danger of looking like work experience kids in comparison. Fox has even deleted press releases as they are incorrect FFS and Fox and Johnson have already got into a pissing contest over turf.

Its fucking shocking and a national bloody disgrace that they have said publically said such naively dumb things. The EU must be rubbing their hands in delight at our stupidity.

The sooner Liam Fox get the sack the better. I have no doubt it WILL happen too. He is a fucking liability.

As for Davies and Johnson... I feel for Johnson a bit as he had a shocking first week in office due to other matters and he has to deal with a man who is an even bigger dick than himself in Fox. Davies I think has grasped the depth of the problem now, but seems to be quietly panicking, and has instituted daft recruitment which bars anyone with EU experience for fear they somehow might be biased and try and sabotage Brexit.

The pair of them need to step their game up in the first two weeks of term, or there will be hell to pay. They have to hit the ground running come September, yet the noises leaking out give quite the opposite impression.

To be perfectly blunt about it, they need to be winning the support and admiration of Remainers like me, because whilst I'm a tough crowd, the EU itself is going to be a hell of a worse one. I, at least, have a vested interest in Brexit being good for the UK.

It makes me just put my head in my hands when people go on about remainers seeking to sabotage their future here. Indeed, it goes back to this whole brainwashed propaganda of flag waving that went on during the referendum and subconsciously labelled Remainers as somehow unpatriotic...

You know that whole 'Make Britain Great Again' thing that never happened... Yeah right.

Trump's campaign is a carbon copy of Leave, after putting it on the typical American steroids. They've even actively advised Trump - NOT the other way around.

Corcory · 18/08/2016 12:54

Bear - you really do go round in circles don't you. At no stage could the leave campaign ever promise anything as they were not in government.
You have no idea what is being discussed in Westminster with regard to these decisions, none of us do.

SoyYo · 18/08/2016 12:58

Corcory what IDS said to me was slightly different: Indeed he confirmed Turkey was not going to join the Eu (only because I challenged him on that, at first it was The Turks are coming!) but he unequivocally told me it was a "done deal" that as soon as the Referendum was over the Eu was going to announce that as of now ALL Turkey nationals would be granted leave to remain and work in any Eu country....according to him they were holding off announcing this because of the Brexit referendum. If this statement was correct why haven't we heard any such announcements yet? Aside the unstable political situation in Turkey surely someone somewhere would have done so by now?
It was not "certain" Turkey residents, IDS told me ALL Turkey residents. You see how little facts can just be twisted into big fat lies...and how less informed people could easily be misled into casting the wrong vote.

He just kept going on and on about immigration...to a "foreigner" FFS!!

SapphireStrange · 18/08/2016 13:06

Red, thank you for that last post. Informed and articulate as ever.

Soy, it's really interesting – eye-opening – to hear from you about IDS. I bet you weren't what he was expecting. Grin

tiggytape · 18/08/2016 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2016 13:22

Donald J. Trump Verified account @realDonaldTrump
They will soon be calling me MR. BREXIT!
5:11 AM - 18 Aug 2016

Oh. How Funny.

Thank you Mr Trump. Good timing.

Either that or you are a Mumsnetter.

tiggytape · 18/08/2016 13:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Corcory · 18/08/2016 13:26

Red - I was certainly aware that the leave campaign were going for hearts and using the union flag etc. Boris does like to use Churchill type rhetoric and I would think most would see this it's part of his 'charm'! You really must read the David Davis thread about the article and read what Granddad grumps said which showed that it was completely incorrect and just a load of spin.
I also feel the Boris -Fox thing could well be a very well spun story.
I'm not sure where your piece about Remainers wanting Brexit to fail was aimed. It certainly isn't something I have said. But now I think on it I can think of a few on here! I am a great admirer of Rory Stuart. He has done several pieces for the Border T.V. and has a vast amount of experience to draw on.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2016 13:31

Lord Ashcroft did polling on what people thought of the EU and catergorised them into 5 groups in 2014:

My poll found that when it comes to Europe there are five types of people in Britain. A fifth of the country are in the “Committed Hostility” group who see nothing good about Europe and overwhelmingly want to leave – though immigration worries them more. Or maybe you are a “Discontented Sceptic”, thinking the costs outweigh the benefits but less certain that we should head for the exit. Another quarter of the population make up the “Relaxed Status Quo”, who are happy as things are and hardly give the subject a thought, while the smaller group of “Global Progressives” strongly support the EU and even welcome its influence on Britain. Finally there are the “Disengaged”, one-in-seven of the population who know little and care even less.

That gives you a good idea of how much of the population were actively hostile and how many mildly disliked the EU prior to the general election and any real campaigning.

Leave targeted the disengaged which Remain did not; this group seem, more than any, to have made the biggest difference in the result.

Remain had the more difficult task in motivating the 'relaxed status quo' in voting at all.

SoyYo · 18/08/2016 13:35

Sapphire indeed! you couldn't make it up, honestly, he just didn't know how to react to our - shall we way - "unexpected" encounter Grin

Red thank you for your post, I am not so well versed in politics, so worrying but very interesting and clearly put

Tiggy UKIP are a far right nationalist party. If your assessment is true then it means half of the country's population is deeply xenophobic and anti Eu. I don't believe that. Maybe I don't want to believe that and think better of the British.

There will always be a % of the population that hate the Eu and all it stands for, but not in the numbers that voted "Leave". I think emotions and misplaced patriotism was stirred up by the Hate campaign, and most believed the lies, rather than being against the Eu "per se".
I don't know why people keep labelling the Remain lot "fearmongers" when Leave did exactly that with their (quite frankly tedious) "uncontrolled immigration" rethoric.

tiggytape · 18/08/2016 13:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2016 13:42

Corcory, then you'll understand that when Rory Stewart starts talking about political will and political capacity being different things in relation to Brexit, then people should be worried and sit up and take notice.

The impression I get now, is that since the referendum is over and down with, the lies and dishonesty have ended somehow.

I personally think that couldn't be any further from the truth and we need to be having a much more frank and honest conversation nationally about the difficulties of Brexit in that sense. Instead the wilful blinkers seem to be still firmly on.

The trouble is, I honestly think The Brexit Department is a bit like the Walmington-On-Sea Home Guard rather than Bletchley Park right now.

tiggytape · 18/08/2016 13:52

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bearbehind · 18/08/2016 13:53

corcory, sadly I fully appreciate I'm going round in circles but when you say things like No one ever seams to mention what was actually said in debates I have a tiny glimmer of hope that there actually was sound reasoning behind your choice.

You then follow it up with a gem like at no stage could the Leave campaign ever promise anything and my heart sinks.

Globetrotter100 · 18/08/2016 14:00

Red The trouble is, I honestly think The Brexit Department is a bit like the Walmington-On-Sea Home Guard rather than Bletchley Park right now Sad

And if only Angela Leadsom had got the top job there would be a great "Mum's Army" gag in that for sure Grin

Corcory · 18/08/2016 14:06

You don't half have a bee in your bonnet Bear don't you. How on earth do you expect anyone who is not in government and may never be promise anything. I just don't understand you at all. You have spent weeks on this and set up threads on it. I think you are too used to political debate where one party is in government and the other in opposition and they are making promises about what they would do if they were in power. This was a referendum, it wasn't like that.

TheElementsSong · 18/08/2016 14:10

at no stage could the Leave campaign ever promise anything

And yet there were "pledges" from the ringleaders, guaranteeing funding for X, Y and Z Hmm for example this report of a signed letter, no less:

www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/76131/brexit-would-not-affect-science-farming-and-culture

(and then after the big headline, the detail - until 2020 only, ie. which would have happened anyway).

SoyYo · 18/08/2016 14:14

If we stayed, it would be hard to see if we'd go back to having the influence we had before because the result of the referendum is now known and GB would be seen as always potentially one general election away from leaving all over again. The genie is out of the bottle in terms of the GB population having told the EU where we see ourselves in relation to them

The Eu leaders are taking a "hard" stance with GB to stop further destabilisation with their own far right nationalist groups or - the case in Spain with Catalunya- independence parties. I wouldn't necessarily read that as a complete lack of willingness to look at the possibility of no Brexit at all. That it would be hard to regain trust yes. Eat humble pie, yes.

It is unlikely they would refuse a British U turn on the topic if they could see real political will from Westminster to not invoke Article 50.

Both Eu and GB have a lot to lose with Brexit, and we are talking politics after all...a "no going back" can easily turn into new "open dialogue" and "lessons learnt", it wouldn't be in either GB or Eu interests to persist with the sorry story when there is so much to gain from not going ahead.

It would be good if for once Westminster owned up to the monumental cockup this Referendum has been and went cap in hand to the electorate and BOTH sides admitted some of the hidden agendas behind this story, the real figures, the real consequences and requested a new mandate to invoke Article 50.

It would open the possibility to go back to the drawing board with the Eu, or at least explore the consequences of not invoking Article 50... it would mean political suicide for many but if they were truly "patriotic" and wish their homeland to prosper it is not beyond the realms of possibility.
I agree highly unlikely but not impossible...

Peregrina · 18/08/2016 14:20

How on earth do you expect anyone who is not in government and may never be promise anything. I just don't understand you at all.

But haven't we been told somewhere on this or another thread that the Official Leave campaign did have a promise in its Leaflet that the rights of EU citizens to remain here would be guaranteed? If they couldn't guarantee it, what were they doing putting the statement in?