LEAVERS - update on the 'invoke A50 now' petition. I have the reply.

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Dear xxxxxx

The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Invoke Article 50 of The Lisbon Treaty immediately.”.

Government responded:

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives.

The British people have voted to leave the EU and their will must be respected and delivered. The process for leaving the EU and determining our future relationship will be a complex one, so we need to take time to think through our objectives and approach. We want to ensure the best possible outcome for Britain and the future UK-EU relationship. As part of this, the government will of course work closely with the devolved administrations to ensure we get the best deal for the UK as a whole. We should not trigger Article 50 until we have a UK approach and objectives, so Article 50 should not be invoked before the end of this year.

Department for Exiting the European Union

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petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133618?reveal_response=yes

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UK Government and Parliament

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Exactly, Peregrina! Corcory, you're either being quite disingenuous or you have a short memory.

How on earth do you expect anyone who is not in government and may never be promise anything. I just don't understand you at all.

And I don't understand how you can vote for something that you have no expectation of at all.

If there had been something to vote for it would have been a different situation.

Tiggy we are on the same page, it was me that said "no one cared" (just to illustrate many many people truly didn't give a flying monkey about being in or out of the Eu till the Hate campaign stirred this up).
It was me that said "you are correct" when you challenged my statement and it was me that again stated not in the numbers that justified a 52% Leave vote.

Red quoted some figures on electorate polls that confirmed my gut feeling. Thank you for that.

Oh, but the official Leave campaign did promise things.

Check out the FAQs leave.eu/en/faqs

e.g.

"13. What will happen to British citizens working in the EU, and EU citizens working in the UK?

The EU would be obliged to grant permanent settlement rights to Britons living in Ireland and mainland Europe, and the UK would do the same.

14. Will I still be able to travel throughout the EU freely?

Because all mainland EU members are part of the Schengen passport union, UK citizens would continue to enjoy unfettered access across the continent, once they had cleared passport control in the first country in which they arrive. We would have similar easy access arrangements to those of Switzerland – it is not an EU member either. Given how dependent the rest of Europe is on British business travel and tourism, a question of visas should not arise."

(Yes, I know "given" and "should" are caveats. "would", rather less so.)

Patty, that's an interesting read, isn't it? I do love the confidence here:

'18. Would Britain have less influence in the World?' 'No. we would have more. Currently on many of the most important global bodies, such as the World Trade Organisation, it is the EU that represents the UK. Leaving will give Britain its own seat back at this and many other important global organisations.'

I think you are too used to political debate where one party is in government and the other in opposition and they are making promises about what they would do if they were in power. This was a referendum, it wasn't like that.

Except the official leave campaign said they would do certain things. In fact they promised them.

Then when challenged on that, a number of them signed a letter with their names saying they would commit to these certain things.

This is despite the fact that they didn't actually have the authority at the time to guarantee a toothbrush on expenses to an EU negotiator.

And the press were shit at driving this point home to the public that the 'promise' really wasn't worth the paper it was written on and was in no way on a par with an election manifesto. Yet this is what the public were given the impression that was.

It was a deliberate manipulative and really shows up the lack of accountability of political campaigning that does not measure up to the standards we expect and are legally protected in all other forms of advertising.

The rules on referendums need a good and serious look at tbh. They are different to normal elections in places, in ways that I was very much unaware of. Frankly I think they should be banned outright like in Germany. If we have other issues of such national importance, package them up properly in a General Election with a proper manifesto behind them, as accountability is far better, and it causes far less constitutional conflicts of interests where one group has democratically voted for one thing and then another ends up democratically voted for exactly the opposite.

Red (and anyone else interested), do you know there's a public consultation open at the moment on an inquiry by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee into 'Lessons Learned from the EU Referendum'?

Here

Deadline for suggestions is 5 Sept.

Whatever the final outcome, for the reasons stated above, I believe this referendum will go down in British history as one of the greatest and most shameful bastardizations of the so-called democratic process.

No I didn't know about that.

I might have a good old think about that, and I MIGHT even consider writing something.

It would have to be something that no one else would say though. I guess that would have to be about social media debate. (Though this might also screw my anonymity too, so that does make me more hesitant).

Plus it requires a job title to accompany submissions. I'm not sure I could use 'Unpaid Mumnet Bum' really.

'Home-maker'? Doesn't really matter.

I'm in an FB group that's writing a joint submission. Some kind soul has volunteered to draft it and we're just waiting to see it.

General Elections are even less democratic in many respects than referendums. Suppose we hadn't had a referendum or something goes awry and we reach 2020 with the Tories standing for re-election promising a Brexit deal that's not clear and with Labour seeking to win with a manifesto promising remain?

You're hopeful. Corbyn gets awfully cagey and distracted on the subject of Brexit. He tries to avoid being pinned on the subject. Its the one thing Owen Smith is viewed stronger on. I can't see Corbyn even mentioning it in a manifesto, as Europe now is a divisive Labour issue as well as a Tory one. The Lib Dems are far more likely to be stronger on an anti-Brexit platform. I think Labour will stand on what they will do post Brexit rather than stopping Brexit if I'm honest.

I have never read that the Leave campaign said they 'promised' anything. They said what should/would happen but Bear is for ever going on about 'promises' and I answered that question. It is just arguing about semantics. Bear is forever going on about what I have said are just 'wants' not 'promises' and is going round and round in circles. Thread after thread. She keeps saying we only have a 'wish list' and some remainer also keeps telling 'us saying I want doesn't get'. And that the leave campaign is just a throw of the dice and that we had no idea what we were voting for. Just arguing for arguing's sake.

By the way where is Small fox? I asked her a question about the facts about what she was saying but all I got was that she has a PHD in Economics don't you know but still hasn't come up with any facts to back up her constant goading.

She keeps saying we had no idea what we were voting for

Well, can you say what Leave were voting for? She keeps asking it because you haven't answered. The Leave vote was a 'simple' vote to leave the EU but the alternatives to EU membership, as we've been seeing since the result, are many and varied. And what Leave voters want seems to be varied too.

That's all anyone is asking. I'd like to know too.

It's not arguing for arguings sake, it's trying desperately to get you to tell us what you actually voted for.

Thread after thread you've avoided saying what you want Brexit to look like, and that is aside from the problem that what you want and what you'll get aren't the same.

All I've ever seen you say is it was to get controlled immigration but there's no evidence it will be any more controlled than it is now.

Why don't you shut us all up by actually giving us some hope based on what we can look forward to if you truly believe in your decision.

I have never read that the Leave campaign said they 'promised' anything

Towing the 'official' Brexit leavers party line I see

Brexit leave campaign wipes website

I have never read that the Leave campaign said they 'promised' anything.

Is a "pledge" in a letter signed by Johnson, Gove & Patel (June 14, according to my link) not "a promise" to most people? Not to mention the now-apparently-mythical red bus?

And what Leave voters want seems to be varied too.

I've been pondering this, Sapphire, and am thinking this is actually mighty convenient. Because there is no common ground on what they voted for, no matter what the eventual outcome is (short of absolutely every contradictory desire being achieved and wall-to-wall gold-plated unicorns), every Leave voter will be able to shrug their shoulders and say, "Well this isn't what I voted for, so it's not my fault in the slightest - it's the fault of everybody else, especially those nasty horrible bullying negative-thinking Remoaners etc etc"

This in fact started on June 24, when Leavers decided to rewrite history that all those politicians, officials and experts who had sided with Remain should in fact have devoted their efforts to preparing the impossible, contradictory plans for Leave.

Elements, yes, I agree.

It may also be the conundrum (or series of) on which this stupid idea finally flounders and breaks up, though. Here's hoping...

TheElements exactly my thoughts.

Everyone I respectfully suggest you stop pondering on the reasons for people casting their Leave vote.

Before the Referendum indeed there may have been many reasons as people were lied to by the Leave camp.
But now? So far the only clear unequivocal response you have received is to stop "uncontrolled immigration", everything else is not replied to clearly or ignored.
There is no ownership about the responsibility the Leave camp had to come up with a credible robust exit strategy. I always thought it was very weird...
So my assessment stands: Anyone who persists in justifying their Leave vote are xenophobic/racist and you cannot reason with prejudice now...can you?
And the anecdotal reasons I received from some of the people I know in my Leave area ranged from "I was pissed off with austerity so it seemed like a good chance to make my feelings heard" to "I honestly didn't have a clue where to put my x...then I remembered about my neighbour/father inlaw/friend/cat/dog having a disagreement with some nasty Lithuenians/Romanians/Albanians and decided to vote Leave" to "we have to do something to stop terrorism" to "I don't really care that much...didn't think we would win so just a general protest vote really".

There is no rhyme or reason. It was just a vague feeling that the bankers, Westminster, the hard working Poles, somebody somewhere had to pay for the years of austerity, for losing benefits, or a job or just because you are a rebel and like to stick two fingers to the Establishment...and the Eu vote was as good an excuse as any, plus a lot just liked that Boris bloke it had to be okay now they couldn't be accused of supporting looney Farage with Boris now on board....
You will never get a single coherent answer...because there simply isn't a coherent reason to Leave the Eu.

So how can you make a coherent policy from that lack of coherence?

Red I think right now we all know we are up shit creek without a paddle (is that the right idiom? hope I didn't misquote and come across rude!).

Soy, that's the right idiom. It IS a bit rude, but justifiably so .

Yep, its the right idiom.

I think that's the most depressing thing.
Leave voters won't be any more happy than Remain voters in the end imho.