AIBU to wonder why approx 40% of Londoners voted for Brexit?

[fluffychicken]

Can any London Brexiters tell me why you voted for Brexit? I am really curious to know.

Marmaduchess that is a frankly stupid (and racist) comment seeing as most of the establishments you mention are not of eu origin. Why are you conflating them with the idea of uncontrolled immigration?

The government could impose stricter controls over non eu migration if it though it necessary, but it hasn't. Why is that do you think? (And WTAF have black housing associations got to do with immigration?!)

I suppose you'd only be happy with a high street consisting of 'ye olde bakery' and traditional ale serving pubs?

Actually Marmaduchess this is for you, I'm sure this would please you greatly

www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/the-brext-episode

Marmaduchess that is a frankly stupid (and racist) comment seeing as most of the establishments you mention are not of eu origin. Why are you conflating them with the idea of uncontrolled immigration?

It is neither "stupid" nor "racist" it was an answer to crossroads desperation not to see immigration to London fall, that is any immigration.

that you are not one of the many young British people who cannot afford to buy your own home because of our exploding population.

The [[http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/uk-population/
UK population]] isn't 'exploding'. The lack of affordable housing is due to a lack of sensible housing policies over the past 20 odd years or so.

Marmaduchess I would hate to mess with your narrative of a UK taken over by Polish delis and kebab shops, though just remember that Chicken Tikka Masala has been beaten into second place by Chinese Stir Fry as Britain's favourite dish. Meat and two veg is just not what we want anymore. However neither EU or non EU migration is heading into the tens and twenty millions, with free movement net EU migration barely climbed beyond the level of non EU net migration at 150k and for non EU migration unless you have both money and a lot of professional help it is next to impossible.

"Countries all over the world trade with the EU and do not follow their rules."

Yet none of them have free trade of services, goods, and capital with the EU. Interesting that, those that trade goods produce goods to EU standards too. Even the much vaunted CETA deal is heavily in the EU's favour and doesn't include services.

To compare other countries deals to what we want is inaccurate.

LPH
Buzzfeed link, not bad!
(Although the inclusion of 'experts' with all things Euro was an indicator of the author's bias!)

"Yet none of them have free trade of services, goods, and capital with the EU"

And all are free to impose their own tariffs in return. The original claim was about 'trade', not 'tariff free trade', the latter is the single market.

As regards standards, that's par for the course, countries which wish to trade with us have to produce goods that meet our standards too, or at least did prior to the EU replacing national with EU wide standards. Initially we will simply continue applying EU standards anyway, but will be free, over time, to change them if they do not work for us, and that could mean raising the standard not lowering as frenzied Remainers always suggest.

The UK population isn't 'exploding'.

It certainly is . It's growing faster than any other EU country and faster than at any other time in our history. And that is only according to the official figures, which most people do not realise are just very crude estimates. Nobody counts migrants in and out you know! A great many people believe the ONS has reliable figures, they don't

And remember we are growing the population of what is already a grossly overcrowded country, far far more densely populated than Germany, France, Sweden or Ireland.

Do I take it that you, like Crossroads, are keen that immigration continues apace? If so why and how many millions more do you want to accomodate?

I am fascinated to hear why pro mass immigrationists love immigration so much that they want to crowd us even more, and build over our lovely countryside

The lack of affordable housing is due to a lack of sensible housing policies over the past 20 odd years or so.

There are many factors but immigration is a HUGE contributory factor, especially in London and the south east which has seen massive immigration in the same period. Every single property which an immigrant family occupies means one less property for a British family. Its feeding the Buy To Let business too, which is putting heavy upward pressure on the cheaper properties first time buyers buy.

Another issue with uncontrolled immigration is its unpredictability. Twenty years ago most planners had little idea that they needed to plan for millions of new ready made families (as opposed to natural increase through births or people living a little longer).

Article from 2007 will shock you:
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/city-eye-facts-on-a-plate-our-population-is-at-least-77-million-5328454.html

Do I take it that you, like Crossroads, are keen that immigration continues apace? If so why and how many millions more do you want to accomodate?

Migrants are net contributers. They come to work. If the work isn't there they won't come. Brexit should sort that as well as forcing many Brits overseas to look for employment.

Every single property which an immigrant family occupies means one less property for a British family. Its feeding the Buy To Let business too, which is putting heavy upward pressure on the cheaper properties first time buyers buy.

so only British people should be able to buy British property? Where should the thousands of non British NHS workers live? Whats your view on Brits buying up property overseas?

I am fascinated to hear why pro mass immigrationists love immigration so much that they want to crowd us even more, and build over our lovely countryside

6% of land is built on in the UK. It would take a hell of alot of new housing to cover it. Plenty of British planners and house builders would be happy to build over it I'm sure. Migrants or no migrants.

millions of ready made new families Not so, these are the facts about immigration, fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/ 5% of the population does not equal overrun, in most cases making a net gain to our economy by working in jobs where there is a skills shortage such as the NHS. Most are young single people, they are not occupying family homes, or taking up school places or doctor's appointments. It is true the official figures do not cover all the immigrants who arrive on a plane on a tourist visa or are trafficked and disappear into the black economy but those are people who cannot get a NI number and who are exploited, in some cases in conditions of modern day slavery I would hope we all oppose. By the nature of the under the radar lives they lead they are certainly not overrunning the economy in their millions or using up resources.

So much bullshit.

That article is shocking only for its stupidity. The made-up population figures it quotes are based on nothing more than supermarket sales, taking no account of food waste.

As to the rest... Millions of ready made families? Exploding population? Polish toddler groups and fried chicken shops??

This is some really pathetic stuff.

Quite apart of the basis of the figures being Supermarkets massaging the figures in their own self interest to argue that the market is bigger than it is so they can grab a bigger share, the article is from 2007, it is 9 years old.....

Migrants are net contributers. They come to work. If the work isn't there they won't come. Brexit should sort that as well as forcing many Brits overseas to look for employment.
That is not an answer to my question.
Why do pro mass immigrationists actively want even more immigration?
Are we not multicultural enough to satisfy you?

so only British people should be able to buy British property? Where should the thousands of non British NHS workers live?
Given the issue of rich overseas buyers then yes it would be a very good thing if only citizens could buy property, as is the case in India for example. Many countries have constraints on foreigners buying property.
Non citizens would have to rent (as many do and many Brits working abroad).

Whats your view on Brits buying up property overseas?
That is a matter which should be entirely for the citizens of those countries to decide.
Do you agree?

6% of land is built on in the UK. It would take a hell of alot of new housing to cover it.
Nobody is suggesting it will be 'covered' (hyperbolic strawman), however all over the south and especially in the south east, land is being lost and of course there are all the concurrent pressures on nearby roads, rail, schools, hospitals, sports facilities, nurseries even childrens' playgrounds are overcrowded. This is extreme in the south east where the character of Surrey towns for example has been totally altered by the spill over from London and direct foreign immigration.

Please explain why you actively want this process to continue apace and our Green Belt to be eaten away?

Plenty of British planners and house builders would be happy to build over it I'm sure. Migrants or no migrants.
Indeed but there wouldn't be pressure on local authorities from Government to release land for building, as there now is. Land could be better protected.

whatwouldrondo
Quite apart of the basis of the figures being Supermarkets massaging the figures in their own self interest to argue that the market is bigger than it is so they can grab a bigger share
That could be the case but it has been supported by both the NFU and also local authorities based on volume of sewage (Polly Toynbee wrote an article for the Guardian on this latter point a few years ago).

Its not as if the Government figures aren't likely to be 'massaged' too! Their failure/unwillingness to control immigration is a huge source of condemnation from the electorate and a major factor in the support for Brexit. They have every motive to minimize

the article is from 2007, it is 9 years old.....
Own goal there!
Even by the Governments own figures the population has increased by some two and a half million since then!

Marmaduchess You argue that pre Brexit we were facing some sort of uncontrolled flood of, presumably EU since it is a discussion of Brexit, migration in the millions. We have presented you with statistics that demonstrate the nature of the migration was actually small in scale relative to the overall population! not overwhelming millions, and was largely of people coming here to work and study and contribute more to the economy than they take out. It is a matter of perspective and the spectre of endless queues of people running into millions wanting to come here even from the EU to take our jobs, benefits and resources is something that was created and exploited by self interested politicians. That reached unbelievable levels of manipulation when they claimed Turkey was the next to join the union, recent events have further proved it was always a fallacy.

I can see that a few towns, in the main towns with a historic or current labour shortage, have had problems with resources being overwhelmed by those arriving from overseas to work but that was an issue for local and UK government, it is their responsibility to ensure the infrastructure for the local economy is provided and the benefits of immigration also flow to those places that need resources as a result. The reason that did not happen was government not EU policy.

Personally I am sure the cultivation by successive politicians of a negative view of immigration in their own interests has been to the detriment of the U.K. Our restrictions on non EU migration are inhumane and counterproductive. We took a shameful 3000 refugees made stateless by war compared with the 30000 taken by Australia via it's system, we split families and deter talent and those coming to study here and support our higher education system. At least free movement in the EU means that we do not suffer that loss of talent and diversity and the rightness of that is shown by the net economic benefit . It also meant all the young people of the EU, our young people included, had the right to study, live and work in 27 countries, something they felt was very important and led to their overwhelming remain vote. You will be explaining that to them in the face of an illusory immigration threat for a very long time . Brexit is is a risk to all those positives for the UK.

marmaduchess
I have decided not to engage with Leave arguments anymore (or what they bring up as arguments). But your posts are borderline racist, xenophobic. I wonder how you talk about these issues in private if this is how you come across on a public forum. "Multicultural enough"

I don't think I have yet seen a Leave argument which is at all persuasive. E.g. we won't be bound by EU regulations, so we could put stricter regulations on the environment in place. We could, but what evidence is there that we would do so?

I wondered how closely the Leave vote correlated with the rise in reported racist incidents.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-uk-post-referendum-racism-hate-crime-eu-referendum-racism-unleashed-poland-racist-a7160786.html

What is abundantly clear from this list that much of the racism was directed at Muslims, which was absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

It generally shows the level of intelligence of the racist fringe of the leave vote :)

I am very disappointed by the unintelligent low quality of replies!

We have a lie i.e. that the scale of immigration from the EU is low when even the official estimates show that it's high (half of all immigration) and anecdotal evidence and other sources suggests that the actual numbers are higher, very likely significantly higher, than the official ONS figures suggest.
I remind you EU immigrants are not actually counted. The only definitive figures are NINos, but they only cover those who are working legally and paying tax. They don't include dependents or the many working casually in the black market (which many dependents are, wives and gfs operating below the radar as cleaners, waitressing etc)

Then of course we have the all too predictable accusations of 'racism' from those unable to deal with any opinion which doesn't comply with their own, deeply held, but IMO deeply misguided, faith, as well as the ironic comment from Valentine that she doesn't 'engage with Leave supporters anymore' which begs the question 'so why post?'

So I'll try again returning to my original question:
Why do some of you want immigration to continue at current high levels (that is around 600K a year EU plus non EU) when we have enough multiculturalism to satisfy even the most 'cosmopolitan minded' surely(?) and when it is putting terrible strains on the infrastructure, housing especially and will continue to do so for decades to come, the environment, and social cohesion?

Secondly, how many more immigrants do you want, or what would you like to see our population rise to, before you feel controls should be imposed?
I find pro immigrationists are especially timid about attempting to answer this second question, usually hiding behind the totally unevidenced claim that if the economy slows up, then they will stop coming, which has been proven not to be true.

Serious non ad hom replies only please.

whatwouldrondo
Marmaduchess You argue that pre Brexit we were facing some sort of uncontrolled flood of, presumably EU since it is a discussion of Brexit, migration in the millions.

I think this comment deserves a response:
The immigration situation hasnt changed yet (unfortunately). The Brexit referendum was NOT a cut off for immigration and wont be until Brexit is complete, and maybe not even then.
EU immigration continues to be uncontrolled.
EU immigration runs at approximately 300K a year, by official figures alone. That IS a million every 3.3 years.
We are talking about a city the size of BIRMINGHAM every three years to house EU immigrants.
It is simply a lie or willful blindness to deny this is a flood.

I'm laughing at your replies dearie..here have some straw for your man.

I did say serious replies only SFox.
Shame youve flunked it.

I am genuinely interested in honest replies

I'll reply seriously when you offer a decent challenge until then it's better to make fun of you.