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Brexit

AIBU to wonder why approx 40% of Londoners voted for Brexit?

216 replies

fluffychicken · 07/08/2016 15:39

Can any London Brexiters tell me why you voted for Brexit? I am really curious to know.

OP posts:
Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 13:10

The questions are reasonable ones SF, although ones which clearly you are ducking out of answering.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 13:30

I can't see that your statements are reasonable marmaduchess - they just seem to be allegations. However, given that we have an aging indigenous population, who would you like to see staffing our NHS as a start?

smallfox2002 · 12/08/2016 13:31

Well I don't really think your question warrants a response because it's straw man point.

Further to this your wilful misuse of statistics in stating that immigration is 600 000 per year, which is nominal immigration, not net shows that you are disingenuous. There is no point using that figure because it doesn't count people leaving.

So can your answer your own straw man point? How much immigration do you think is reasonable?

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 13:51

Ah yes, Lets spend £350 million a week on the NHS.
Oh sorry, we didn't say we would spend that.

whatwouldrondo · 12/08/2016 14:04

marmaduchess Net EU migration is not 300,000 a year, it is nearer 150000. Indeed in the year to June overall net EU and EU migration actually fell from the figure to September 2015, from 336,000 to 323000. and the prior increase was underpinned by a fall in emigration, economic opportunity after recovery from the crash having improved. As previously stated they are an economic advantage to the economy, £20bn over ten years. And they are not concentrated in any city , they are focused where the labour market provides opportunities, at both ends. Be it the fruit pickers without which that part of the agricultural sector will close, the construction workers, and yes cleaners, or those working as doctors, in the financial services industry, arriving as students (who make up 15% of Eu migrants and 47% of non EU migrants) to contribute to the quality and viability of our higher educations system. London voted remain because most Londoners appreciate the value of immigration and were not vulnerable to either a racist mayoral campaign or leave and the press manipulating perceptions so that immigration became such a big issue . It may be one of the areas where it is concentrated but we also understand that it isn't a flood, it is keeping us going. I actually grew up in a community where non EU immigrants accounted for 30% of the population but nobody thought they were in the midst of a flood because all those immigrants were working in an industry that kept our city going. If there is resentment there now it is that the economic fall out of Maggie abandoning manufacturing industry hit the city's economy hard and the government has never shared the benefits of immigration then or now to help support it.

Here is another straw man, the proportion of the population who are over 65 is set to rise by 5% in the ten years to 2024 with a corresponding decrease in the working age population who will have to generate ever more tax income to fund the increasing cost of their care and pensions (and my pension got hit by another 10% by a government announcement made necessary by that demographic fact just last week, after £40k got wiped from my state pension entitlement - Brexit I fully expect to carry on just keeping taking away in that respect) Where are you going to get that tax income, let alone the doctors and nurses who care for them and care workers who wipe their bums

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 14:11

Further to this your wilful misuse of statistics in stating that immigration is 600 000 per year, which is nominal immigration, not net shows that you are disingenuous. There is no point using that figure because it doesn't count people leaving.

No, its the gross immigration figure as supplied by the ONS
The ONS also shows us the actual data estimate of EU migrants coming to the UK for settlement, which is around half of all immigration i.e. around 300K a year.

If you want to argue the validity of speaking in terms of 'gross' or 'net' immigration we can do so, but as there is no 'net' immigration figure supplied specifically for EU immigration then to accuse me of being disingenuous in not supplying it is a strawman.

You are clearly attempting to deflect attention from answering the questions, as well as personalising the argument with false attacks on my
integrity. Please stop this as it sours what I hoped could be an honest non rancorous discussion.

I will answer your question SF after you answer mine. I asked first after all, and that is the convention. Smile

Figmentofmyimagination · 12/08/2016 14:13

The UK population isn't 'exploding'.

It certainly is . It's growing faster than any other EU country and faster than at any other time in our history.

Marmaduke this is not exactly likely to be a long term problem is it. The best way to prevent a population "exploding" with migrant workers is to make your country an unattractive place in which to work and do business.

This policy does seem to be working - the falling pound, in particular, is putting off workers from elsewhere in the EU, and even US policy makers don't seem that keen on doing business with us.

At least we have taken back control. Phew.

whatwouldrondo · 12/08/2016 14:18

marmaduchess Look inside yourself, what is generating this scale of resentment towards a generally young hard working group who make such a big contribution to our society. Why are you so afraid of all those manifestations of their contributions to our company, that list you provided had been stewed upon and came from a dark place of fear and resentment.

I don't think you are particularly stupid but you are certainly not self aware. Xenophobia that fear of others is a natural human emotion, and it has emerged at many times in world history to cause huge damage and still does. No part of the world is immune, to gain Chinese citizenship for instance you have to prove your Chinese ethnicity through many generations, no matter how long you live there or how gifted and talented you are if you are Caucasian you do not qualify. That comes from deeply entrenched racial prejudice, it does no society any favours. The way to protect yourself from that, and I admit there are times when I have those feelings is to look at the facts, and make sure you have a rational perspective on the situation, not allow politicians and the press to exploit them. We really do have more in common than sets us apart.

smallfox2002 · 12/08/2016 14:26

"as there is no 'net' immigration figure supplied specifically for EU immigration "

There is, it is well reported, it was 184,000 last year.

Why don't you answer your own question, because you have obviously posed it so that you can attempt to destroy the argument of anyone who states a figure.

You get the ball park rolling.

Oh I also haven't personalised attacks on you or questioned your integrity, I've questioned your use of argument.

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 14:54

marmaduchess Net EU migration is not 300,000 a year, it is nearer 150000
Do you have a source?
The numbers of EU citizens estimated to be simply " leaving" is meaningless in terms of net EU immigration if they were persons who had never declared an intention to remain long term anyway (I believe its two years or more to 'count' as 'immigrants).
Do you see the difficulty in even estimating a 'net' figure?

Indeed in the year to June overall net EU and EU migration actually fell from the figure to September 2015, from 336,000 to 323000
We have seen minor fluctuations since 2004 when Blair opened our borders and this is insignificant and no indicator of the trend which is upward.

London voted remain because most Londoners appreciate the value of immigration and were not vulnerable to either a racist mayoral campaign or leave and the press manipulating perceptions so that immigration became such a big issue
An opinion only, and certainly the suggestion that London is less influenced by the press than are other parts of the country I suggest is absurd. As most of the press were pro Remain, as were the broadcasting media and the Government it suggests that Brexiters were less heavily influenced by the media than Remainers. Remember that many who voted on both sides, but especially Remainers were not dedicated supporters of either camp, but struggled to make a decision.

There are many reasons why more Londoners voted Remain and I suggest your explanation is simplistic and certainly does not account for the selfish motives of many high earners enjoying the benefits of cheap EU nannies and cleaners. The pattern also varied hugely across the boroughs with (not surprisingly) the rich boroughs being more pro Remain. You also ignore the HUGE and arguably nasty pressure on social media to vote Remain.

But I note you too fail to answer the questions:

Why do you actively want immigration to continue at 600K a year, which is causing rapid population growth in our tiny (creaking)overcrowded island?
Or would you prefer to see it controlled/reduced?
If not then at what population level would YOU say 'enough is enough'?

Incidentally the 'ageing population' argument is a something of a non sequiter (although still repeated ad nauseum) since it's been demonstrated time and time again that immigration is nothing more than a very short term sticking plaster solution the changing demographic since it is ultimately unsustainable.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 15:04

As most of the press were pro Remain,
Ha, bl**dy, ha.

Sunday Telegraph 18th June: We must vote leave to create a Britain fit for the future.
Daily Mail 22nd June: If you believe in Britain vote Leave.
Sun 14th June : Be Leave in Britain, (with the Leave coloured as the union jack).

So most of the Press!

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 15:04

There is, it is well reported, it was 184,000 last year
OK thanks for that, is it ONS and do you have link?

Why don't you answer your own question, because you have obviously posed it so that you can attempt to destroy the argument of anyone who states a figure.
I am interested in understanding the mindset of those, who despite us having millions of immigrants here already, and despite the numerous problems the sheer numbers are causing , still want more. Confused
Why? Or is it just the price you feel we must pay to be in the EU?
Still need to ask when you say 'enough'?

Anyway I am off now. May reply later

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 15:14

Mirrror, Guardian, The Times, The I ,The FT , The Mail on Sunday, all Remain
and of course the all powerful BBC (though obliged to pretend to be neutral).

Then several large businesses told their employees to vote Remain!

ManonLescaut · 12/08/2016 15:14

As most of the press were pro Remain, as were the broadcasting media and the Government it suggests that Brexiters were less heavily influenced by the media than Remainers

What? The Telegraph - biggest selling broadsheet - pro-Brexit.

The Sun & Daily Mail - two of the biggest selling tabloids - also pro-Brexit.

BBC has a public service remit to present both sides equally.

The wealthy London boroughs which voted Remain in high percentages, have large proportions of well educated people. London is multicultural city and foreigners don't scare the majority. Nannies and cleaners don't come into it - if you specifically wanted to employ a migrant for either of those jobs, (which is rather an odd idea) there will always be non-EU and Commonwealth migrants.

smallfox2002 · 12/08/2016 15:32

The mail, Sunday times, sun, express, Sunday expres and telegraph, and the sunday telegraph were all pro brexit. The two.biggest selling tabloids who basically used untruths and misinformation.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 15:32

Now when you talk about millions of immigrants, how far do you want to go back? The Norman Conquest, The Vikings, the Jutes and Angles? I think we should be told!!!

whatwouldrondo · 12/08/2016 15:44

The widely accepted and quoted ONS statistics as quoted by smallfox also.

The Press who endorsed the leave campaign had a much wider readership, The Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express and Murdoch press have over 5m, The rest nearer 1.5m

Perhaps you are unaware that many of your stereotype high earners were leave also, the ones who aren't bothered about having a sensible strategy for the financial services industry based on being a regulated financial centre for the EU. They want an unregulated city where they are free to make large sums of money on the back of big risks / be the money laundering/ bank to the crooks of the world. What could possibly go wrong, apart from what did. They are not exactly the ones struggling to pay nannies and cleaners anyway are they?

Why an earth would I argue against what is basically your emotional response to a lot of emotive rhetoric you have picked up from the media and politicians! No this island is neither overcrowded or creaking though it's wealth and resources could be better distributed. I actually spent years living somewhere far more densely populated and it was a prosperous economy and still with plenty of lovely open space in which to hike. I wouldn't advocate the same density of housing here but we are nowhere near that. Nor am I accepting your continued peddling of an imaginary figure / flood of immigrants, as others say it is just a straw man . What I want is for Britain to continue to welcome those people who will make a contribution to our economy, both those with skills and talent and those willing to do the jobs that we cannot find others to do, not the status quo because In my direct experience the non EU immigration process is overly bureaucratic, expensive and inhumane and I think it needs to be better focused on not deterring those people who will make a positive contribution to our society. If I thought that immigration was really having a negative effect then I would advocate different controls but it isn't, it has benefitted our economy.

What I certainly didn't want was to find myself on an island that has pissed off the rest of the world and shot itself in the foot economically, in which racist xenophobic rhetoric and behaviour has been given a ticket to assert itself. I have had to comfort friends who have been made to cry by it. When I walk the streets I keep having to tear down nasty small minded hate filled little postcards, badly drawn and spelt, that have appeared there for the first time. I have children who now plan to live overseas because they feel betrayed and that their prospects will be better elsewhere.

I am quite sure that you will get your wish of less immigration whatever the governments opts for in terms of the economic damage they will have to accept along with any degree of immigration control they achieve. There is plenty of evidence including those I know directly and indeed my family, that bright people from elsewhere in the world are either leaving or not coming here in the first place, and that our own bright young people plan careers in other parts of the world where they will be welcomed. The worse the economy is hit the fewer people will come here, and indeed the less we will be able to afford in terms of the doctors, nurses and other skilled public sector workers who help keep society going, and put the sticking plasters on our old people.

ManonLescaut · 12/08/2016 15:44

To be fair, the Telegraph printed bollocks too. The biggest pile of manure I've seen in a broadsheet ever, including the Times' coverage of the phone hacking scandals.

Their business section is now in the position of writing embarassed articles on the economic consequences.

whatwouldrondo · 12/08/2016 15:48

We have provided the source, google it, you would be surprised what information you can find out there if you don't just sit back and take whatever you are fed by the Press and politicians........

ManonLescaut · 12/08/2016 15:49

What I certainly didn't want was to find myself on an island that has pissed off the rest of the world and shot itself in the foot economically, in which racist xenophobic rhetoric and behaviour has been given a ticket to assert itself.

+1

I do not want to get locked in a country with a bunch of xenophobic, philistine little-Englanders in denial about long term economic decline.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 15:58

Fully agree Ron. I too have children who are likely to go abroad to further their careers. Great - drive young educated people out, who make a contribution to the economy. But one is married to an immigrant, so that's OK in your book.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 15:59

The OK was to Marmaduchess, not you Ron.

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 18:35

Mirrror, Guardian, The Times, The I ,The FT , The Mail on Sunday, all Remain
and of course the all powerful BBC (though obliged to pretend to be neutral).

Oh and I left out the Observer and the Evening Standard! Was it the influence of Britain's foremost evening paper swung it in London do you think?

With a readership of almost a million (2 million if you include online) it beats all the morning papers but the Sun the Mail and the Metro (officially neutral). Then of course the pro SNP Scotsman was Remain.

More than anything the suggestion is that the wealthy minority voted Remain, plus obviously those EU citizens who have taken citizenship (and many did just so that they could vote). I suggest too that urban populations who were not born and bred in the cities they live in voted remain. This is because they, just like immigrants, moved there for economic reasons. They have no history in these cities, no memories of how it was before it was overcrowded , so no sense that overpopulation has caused a deterioration in the quality of life, and often no long term desire to settle there permanently (judging by the numbers that move out to the Home Counties as children get older, or move much further afield).

In this context its telling that the outer London suburbs which are more likely to be home to "aboriginal Londoners" had a much higher Brexit turnout.

Peregrina · 12/08/2016 18:43

and many did just so that they could vote

Do you know much about the citizen ship process, Marmaduchess?

Marmaduchess · 12/08/2016 18:46

I do not want to get locked in a country with a bunch of xenophobic, philistine little-Englanders

Amusing post Manon.
Do you really fear Brexit means you wont be allowed to leave Britain? LOL

And as you have such a very low opinion of English people why havent you already left? People havent suddenly turned into 'philistines' and 'xenophobes' . I find people ar just th same as theyve always been.

It's really not helpful to reasonable discussion when people start bandying about these ridiculous and borderline racist stereotypes and hate speech.

So can we stick to the topic, rather than attacking people just because they voted differently to ourselves?