AIBU to wonder why approx 40% of Londoners voted for Brexit?

[fluffychicken]

Can any London Brexiters tell me why you voted for Brexit? I am really curious to know.

I'd suggest that talking nonsense about London to Londoners is not a sensible way to proceed.

I do not want to get locked in a country with a bunch of xenophobic, philistine little-Englanders in denial about long term economic decline

Move to Greece or Poland then - go on, off you go.

The Press who endorsed the leave campaign had a much wider readership, The Telegraph, Daily Mail, Express and Murdoch press have over 5m, The rest nearer 1.5m

Which conveniently omits the 2 million Evening Standard readers and the far more influential pro Remain broadcasting media. And yes I know officially neutral but the bias was undeniable as is the personal pro U and often pro Labour politics of many presenters.

I do not think personally that the press had a huge influence either way.

Broadcasting I think did, but the scaremongering didn't work very well.

I'm currently based in Paris.

I have always disliked the racist, xenophobic, nationalist, boorish tendencies among the British. I make no apology for it. It is not a step forward for this mentality to be on the ascendant in public life and given legitimacy by policitians & media.

The use of racism, xenophobia and lies are used to manipulate public opinion, will inevitably be deplored by intelligent people.

Move to Greece or Poland then - go on, off you go

Thanks for neatly exemplifying the problem.

Do you know much about the citizen ship process, Marmaduchess?
Yes I do.
Can you clarify any point you wish to make about it rather than being confrontational? Thank you.

Erm no, I recognise none of that and I have lived around London for almost 40 years in practically every London district and with a Partner who was South East London born and bred from grandparents who lived through the blitz and had 14 children. it does not feel that London has become more overcrowded or that life has deteriorated compared to the conditions that part of the family endured crammed in substandard housing borderline on slums served by useless doctors and terrible schools. Now many parts of inner London are served by much better schools that post the London challenge have much better results for those children from disadvantaged backgrounds especially those from immigrant backgrounds than the rest of the country. Healthcare is much improved as well partly as a result of staff shortages being solved by immigration. Of course there are issues around the effect of gentrification on many inner London communities, including theirs, but that has little to do with immigration.

Some outer London areas had some of the highest remain votes in the country but for obvious reasons the UKIP heartlands to the East, home of the racist black cab driver stereotype went leave. Those areas for obvious reasons do not have high numbers of immigrants, so it was based on "traditional" values racism not direct experience.

Oh and I was including the Evening Standard and it's 800000 readership in the figures for the papers supporting remain.

I have always disliked the racist, xenophobic, nationalist, boorish tendencies among the British.

Wow! That is very racist.

Are you suggesting that in France and other countries no such tendencies are found?

I suggest you ask those immigrants camping at Calais why they are so desperate to come here.

Britain is famously non racist, one of the least racist countries in the world.

Your lack of awareness is quite shocking.

Manon:
I expect that you are fully supportive of Madame Le Pen, at least she isn't British.

Some black cabbies are perfectly sensible it should be said.

I did once, in the last year, have a cabbie who went on a UKIP rant, and continued after the cab had stopped but the meter was still running.

I said I didn't mind the UKIP lecture but I wasn't going to pay for it.

It's racist to say you dislike racism? Ok.

Did I say there was no racism in other countries?

Britain used to be a place where racism was less tolerated, but since the Brexit campaign, and indeed Goldsmith's mayoral campaign, that is no more.

Brexit has brought out the closet racists from the woodwork.

it does not feel that London has become more overcrowded or that life has deteriorated compared to the conditions that part of the family endured crammed in substandard housing borderline on slums served by useless doctors and terrible schools. Now many parts of inner London are served by much better schools that post the London challenge have much better results for those children from disadvantaged backgrounds especially those from immigrant backgrounds than the rest of the country. Healthcare is much improved as well partly as a result of staff shortages being solved by immigration. Of course there are issues around the effect of gentrification on many inner London communities, including theirs, but that has little to do with immigration.

You are right in the points you make that certainly a vast deal of money has been poured into education and healthcare, however when people cannot get a doctors appointment or hospital beds despite this then it seems to be running to stand still.
Regarding slum housing you really are going back quite a long way, most were cleared in the fifties and early sixties as of course you know.

I am speaking of the deleterious effects of the speeding up of immigration in the last twenty years especially since 2004, the A8, rather than the population changes of earlier decades (when it briefly went into reverse).

My point still stands however that the population churn has been far greater in the inner than outer suburbs and the Remain vote mostly higher.

Manon

I think that you are using Brexit to justify your anti British posts.

Oh ffs.

"Britain is famously non racist". Well it
was. You and your ilk are certainly doing your best to change all that.

"However when people cannot get a doctors appointment or hospital beds despite this then it seems to be running to stand still. "

This is a repeated thing, but in areas with little to no immigration it can be hard to get a doctors appointment too. EU immigrants are less likely to use GPs, A and E etc because they are young and healthy, and its been proven, by Oxford University no less, that an increase in immigration reduces waiting times.

The hospital beds issue is not to do with immigration either, its to do with austerity and the cuts to council funding for carers. More people were sent home and looked after by carers in the past, without the care they end up taking up beds.

Ahh facts :)

And Hunt's stupidity, with his junior doctors contract. I have a relative who has just done a couple of years post qualification. I think it's just a matter of time before she clears off to Australia.

As indeed has my relative.....

If there are problems in our healthcare system since 2004 when my relative graduated it is because doctors and nurses found themselves with responsibility for ever more patients, as in for three critically ill in 2006 ending up in a being ten with only the aid of an untrained health assistant, a move to Australia and they are because of the infection risk caring for one...... Austerity not immigration

This is a repeated thing, but in areas with little to no immigration it can be hard to get a doctors appointment too.
LOL where are those areas? Do they exist? Even areas such as the Scilly Isles, the Highlands and rural Wales now have EU immigrants. The numbers may seem small to city dwellers but these are areas that until recently had none and where no extra monies have been put into improving services which often operate in very different way to cities'. An example would be small village schools with highly mixed age classes where even a few non English speaking children puts a huge strain on the teacher.

EU immigrants are less likely to use GPs, A and E etc because they are young and healthy
This isnt the whole truth. They very often end up using A&E because they haven't even registered with a GP, while those who have settled, being of child bearing age, make heavy use of maternity services (Poles are having more kids here than they do in Poland).

Given that the typical healthy individual is of greatest expense to the NHS at birth, during childbearing, and during the last few years of life, these immigrants are hardly likely to be any economic benefit over a lifetime unless highly skilled profssionals

and its been proven, by Oxford University no less, that an increase in immigration reduces waiting times

Do not let your respect for the name of Oxford University cloud your mind to the bias of researchers in the field of immigration. I've looked at this research and it really is an impressive effort at counteracting the truth that more people make more demands on services wherever thy originally come from. What it essentially boils down to is that areas that have lots of immigrants are demographically relatively young areas. So where have elderly people who used to live there gone then? Maybe moved out from London under Yvette Coopers Seaside and Country Homes scheme?

"Seaside & Country Homes offers older tenants of London’s councils and housing associations the opportunity to move away from the hustle and bustle of the city."

That's handy isn't it, shift the problem elsewhere?

Interesting use of speculation versus evidence or even experience there.......

Its not a handy shift of the problem.

As you'd know if you had actually read the study, the movement of people from these areas tends to be into lots of different areas, so the impact is negligible.

" LOL where are these areas"

,My native North East has an EU immigrant population of 1.6%. Even more specifically Sunderland and Hartlepool's populations are 97.5% white British.

See, anecdote isn't as good as data.

As you'd know if you had actually read the study
I have. Its disingenuous to claim the impact of the elderly moving out is 'negligible' because the sum total of elderly seeking A&E care is the same wherever they may be. If three elderly leave London and move to Clacton, Southend and Margate , all break their hips and are admitted to A&E, they each add to the wait in their respective hospitals. It may not be as obvious as if they all roll up at the London, but the total pressure and cost is the same.

It isn't.

The study noted that because the dispersal of people moving out is wide that the waiting times in these areas is negligible.

Here's another little nugget of information for you. Falls in immigration also don't increase or improve the provision of services, because the fall in funding isn't offset by a fall in demand, at least according to several different studies by the LSE and UCL.

Also SF I have asked that people should discuss this in a non confrontational way. Making the assumption that I hadn't read the study without having the manners to ask, is nothing more than spoiling for a fight.

If you cannot discuss Brexit calmly then better if you go and vent your anger by chopping wood or something.

I do realise that some people on the Remain side are very bitter and cannot come to terms with it.

I am interested to get to the bottom of why you so badly want yet more immigration, in particular? My DD, who also voted Brexit, but whose friends all voted Remain (she has kept schtum LOL) has a theory that they don't really want more immigration, and would be quite happy to see it curtailed, it's economic fears of coming out mainly, and liking the idea that we can go to live in the EU (even those with no intent to do so).
Yet nobody here has yet answered my questions on this point.