Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

Smallfox - what I am getting at about insults is the continuous little jibes liking the leavers to turkeys waiting for Christmas was the one used last night and have used it before. It doesn't exactly foster reasoned debate.

I'm just struggling to understand why, having voted to leave the EU, anyone would be happy having been told that we will still have the closest possible ties with them and EU citizens rights will be guaranteed.

Many people who voted leave said they wanted this.

The thing is tiggy we don't know. We weren't presented with a list to put 1-10 in order of preference. Some leavers and remainers think an EEA/EFTA agreement will be OK; for some that would be a good choice, for others making the best of a bad job. You know that the John Redwood tendency want nothing to do with the EU; others seem to want out in order to regain the Empire. You could probably go through a whole list like that.

Corcory It doesn't foster reasoned debate But then neither does refusing to engage in reasoned debate. I can accept leave voters just saying they believe it will all be fine as long as they acknowledge it is an emotional response but not that they are engaging in reasoned debate when whenever somebody tries to argue based on facts eg on fisheries allocation, the risks to the opportunities to study in the EU, especially for the 15000 UK students who take advantage of the Erasmus scheme, the actual nature of the world economy in the 21st century, then it goes deathly quiet.....

Even Cameron's "concessions" had consequences: I know of one UK citizen married to a German who chose to move back to Germany before the vote (they'd only moved back to the UK a couple of years ago)

He was a higher rate tax payer working for an international company; she is setting up a business and earns a minimal amount. They decided that as a family, they couldn't take the risk that if anything happened to his job, they'd be entitled to no benefits

Fortunately, they brought forward the sale of their house 2 weeks, so that they got their money into € before the £ tanked.

She is now looking into getting German passports for herself and their 2 kids.

whatwould - You replied to me on another thread about my feelings on EU fishery policy and you produced some facts that was that as far as I was concerned. As for students studying in the EU, I don't remember having a discussion with you about that but my uneducated view on that is that plenty of our students study all over the world not just in the EU so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't continue. A thread where we discussed the 'actual nature of the world economy in the 21st century' I don't remember.
It's annoying when a discussion doesn't continue isn't it, happens to me loads!
What I really object to is personal attacks and name calling which some posters stoop to.

Bear,

Still awaiting your reply to my key point which I elucidated according to your request.

but my uneducated view on that is that plenty of our students study all over the world not just in the EU so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't continue

How does that help students wanting to study in Europe?

To study in the US for example costs $$$$, not just the fees but also the air fares.

It's not just the Erasmus scheme - which generally means around a year in an EU country - currently any EU student can choose to go university in another EU country. France and Germany have virtually no tuition fees, which was an amazing benefit for any UK student wanting to start out life without whopping debt. At Maastricht you can study in English and while the fees are not as low as France and Germany are significantly lower than here.

Figment - I've got an example of how regulations from the EU can affect the way UK businesses do their work and make it unrealistic to continue.
I know of someone locally in a rural area who started a taxi firm with a small minibus to serve the local community. Through the week he had a contract from the council to transport children from outlaying areas to school. This obviously was only in term and for a short time in the morning and afternoon. He made most of his money at weekends transporting locals on nights out and special occasions.
A regulation then came in that stated that taxi drivers had to have a certain amount of full days off every week which made his business uneconomic so we now have no taxi/minibus service.

Corcory my uneducated view on that is that plenty of our students study all over the world not just in the EU so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't continue.

The EU study abroad programme is called Erasmus. The EU pays EU students a grant (I got 3.5k euros in 2007/8) and 4 flights. You don't have to pay any tuition fees to your host university either, although UK universities still fleece their own students for full fees during their Erasmus year even though they aren't even using the facilities.

Studying all over the world is on normal exchange programmes, over charged at international student rates (ie loads more than the country's own students pay). Many students will be able to afford this I imagine, but many won't. I wouldn't have, and I am so so sad that this opportunity may be taken away from young people.

A regulation then came in that stated that taxi drivers had to have a certain amount of full days off every week which made his business uneconomic so we now have no taxi/minibus service.

Is this the dreadful EU - red tape etc. or is this a business which didn't work out its business plan correctly? Taxi firms often rely on casual drivers anyway to cover weekends and evenings; my brother used to make quite good money doing such shifts.

A rule about having a certain number of days of to me sounds like a good one - do we really want people working themselves into the ground over 7 days a week?

A year in the USA for example would cost you up to £17000 source here as opposed to actually having your costs paid by the EU.

And manon makes an excellent point about Eu students studying full time anywhere. That was our plan for DS, luckily he should still be entitled to European citizenship due to his country of birth, the difficulty is having to renounce British citizenship and reapplying for it later...

Manon - my point is that if you can study in non EU countries then I see no reason why you can't study in EU countries if we are no longer an EU country.
My nephew has just returned from Australia and could have studied in China and hasn't needed to pay any extra fees.
I am not too pleased at the idea that UK students should be able to study in other EU countries and not pay just like the local students. That sounds to me like taking advantage of that countries' benefit system just as many of us would object to EU residents coming here to take advantage of our system. I don't think you can go and study in Scotland if you are not a Scottish resident and pay no fees so how does that work?

Still awaiting your reply to my key point which I elucidated according to your request.

larry, the harmonisation you stated was your 'key point' was mentioned much earlier than your response to me about a rule in the EU you felt was petty.

Not sure what answer you are looking for.

Yes my nephew was on an exchange programme but he didn't have loads of money. He saved up from holiday jobs and evening work for years to be able to do it.
My step daughter studied in France for a year in the late 90's and she didn't get a grant or free flights.

You can study in Scotland for free if you are an EU student, it is English students who have to pay extra, and yes it is unfair.

Not sure how your nephew didn't have to pay, the univ. of Leicester page I linked to estimates costs of 9-17k for a year in Aus. Grants available for us to 5k.

It isn't taking advantage because it is reciprocal and how that country decides to spend its money. You have to look at the wider picture. Germany actively works to attact EU students into Germany because they are more likely to stay if they've studied there and therefore contribute more to the German economy.

I can't understand the objection to EU citizens enjoying free movement to Britain though, perhaps because I've taken full advantage of the opportunities of going the other way.

For example in Spain they subsidise childcare. If you have children in Spain you can get cheap childcare. In the UK we have the NHS. If you live in the UK you can access the NHS.

Grants up to £500 not £5000

A regulation then came in that stated that taxi drivers had to have a certain amount of full days off every week which made his business uneconomic so we now have no taxi/minibus service.

Could you provide some more details of this regulation please? I know several taxi drivers and none of them seem aware of it. I'm not even sure that EU regulation extends to the taxi industry. Employed drivers would be covered by the Working Time Directive but there's an opt out to start with and it doesn't restrict you from working on 7 days during the week anyway.

A rule about having a certain number of days of to me sounds like a good one

Particularly for people who drive for a living.

Which regulation was this though? From here it looks like he should be fine to drive, and under GB rules. Things may have changed in the intervening period though.

Xpost with Grandad

Peregrina - In a rural area like this there aren't loads of people looking for this type of casual work. It was a one man band so worked as an income for one family well. He only worked for 3 hours a day in term time mon to fri so hardly worked into the ground. If he wanted a holiday he would have it in the school holidays with his young children by not taking on any weekend work.
Many small businesses and the self employed work odd hours like this and this was an ideal way for someone to incorporate family life with work. It is a good business plan and well thought out as the school contract is good and guaranteed money. I don't think other countries on EU have this sort of private school contract sort of work so would not take this into account when making the directive.

Zorion - My nephew is in Scotland so that could have something to do with it.
No Grandad, I can't give yo more info on the regulations as I am only stating what his wife has told my.

my point is that if you can study in non EU countries then I see no reason why you can't study in EU countries if we are no longer an EU country

Erasmus provides a student grant.

Australian fees for international students are around £ 9,000- £19,000 for a bachelor's. Did he go with Erasmus Mundus? A Commonwealth supported place? Another scholarship?

You say he saved up for years. That's rather the point. Erasmus allows students to experience education abroad without that.

am not too pleased at the idea that UK students should be able to study in other EU countries and not pay just like the local students. That sounds to me like taking advantage of that countries' benefit system just as many of us would object to EU residents coming here to take advantage of our system.

They do pay the fees like the local students, that's the point. As uni fees are substantially less than here in other EU countries, that's a huge benefit.

In France, to qualify for benefits you need to have made social security contributions for a minimum of 4 months during the previous 28. Students have to register their European healthcare card, to to qualify for healthcare.

I guess Corcory would you consider the possibility that the EU has nothing to do with his decision then? It doesn't look like there are any regulations that apply to his particular case, beyond possibly those set by the UK government.

So you've used a regulation which doesn't actually exist as 'an example of how regulations from the EU can affect the way UK businesses do their work and make it unrealistic to continue'?