Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

Why is everything that questions Leave automatically classed as goady?

It's just a stock answer to try and detract from the facts which are that Theresa May's comments to date are not looking favourable for significant change.

I don't think threads which recognise the breadth of the Leave vote tend to be goady. There can of course be difficulties with narrow strawman arguments (whether on the referendum or on anything else)

Because your replies seem to indicate that leavers won't be happy! They imply and I use the word imply all leavers wanted us out and to close the walls around us and not have anything to do with the rest of the world

Of course I don't think all Leavers wanted us to having nothing to do with the rest of the world

I'm just struggling to understand why, having voted to leave the EU, anyone would be happy having been told that we will still have the closest possible ties with them and EU citizens rights will be guaranteed.

The difficulty in threads like these is people's use of rhetoric which they can't back up, eg, the question to a PP about which petty laws affect them directly and which they expect to change has gone unanswered.

^*
I'm just struggling to understand why, having voted to leave the EU, anyone^ would be happy having been told that we will still have the closest possible ties with them and EU citizens rights will be guaranteed.*

We have no idea at this stage what that means other than we are not turning our backs on anyone.

Hence know one will be upset by this

Ok figment,

How about the limit on running budget deficits of less than 3% of GDP? I see the commission failed to enforce a penalty for this one on Spain and Portugal today. Yet, if it is not enforced, it allows EU countries to play beggar-thy-neighbour, being allowed to borrow on the strength of an implicit EU guarantee. And we all know how that game ends...

What an odd example to use larry

The fines haven't been enforced as it wasn't likely to resolve the problem. That just shows the EU can be flexible if needed, not that the rules are petty and self serving at all.

I'm just struggling to understand why, having voted to leave the EU, anyone would be happy having been told that we will still have the closest possible ties with them and EU citizens rights will be guaranteed.

Because there are some people who voted Leave because they wanted to be in the EEA rather than the EU, and so are fine with those things. I'm not saying they're in the majority, but presumably we all know that more than zero people hold that view?

Bear,

That is a weird avoidance of my key point, isn't it?

Bear, because to apply a vote retrospectively is unfair. If I take out a new mobile phone contract and know what the terms are from 23 June 2016 I wouldn't expect the mobile phone company to change the Ts and Cs sometime in July or August of the same year. If someone is an EU citizen and came to live in the U.K. before Brexit became an established fact, then they came as an E.U. citizen and their rights as such should be respected. That always seemed a bit of a no brainer to me, as the advert said, to be honest.

What was your key point?

Figment asked for an example of a petty rule that directly affected you and you gave an example that doesn't even affect the UK as we had already been exempted from future bail outs

I was leave with an extremely small L. I am pretty happy with what's happening now although straight after Brexit I was furious with all the political manoeuvring that went on, thought there were no strong politicians left in the country, everyone was quitting!

I do wonder what Europe in the future will look like. If the terrorist activities continue to be as regular as they currently are I do think the freedom of movement for citizens will have to be curtailed. It stands to reason that countries will want to protect their people and if that means establishing borders again then I think people will vote for it.

So I can see in the future most EU countries renegotiating terms so I don't think we are going to be seen as standing alone. We will all be countries that work together with a common goal.

Bear,

My key point is that unless we have total harmonisation (tax, currency etc) a block with freedom of trade and movement will self destruct. Weaker countries will continue to borrow more than they should on the strength of the implicit EU guarantee until they are actually bailed out (at a cost of eur 100s of billions) or expelled.

kate My point is I don't interpret it as only applying to people currently living in the UK; it was very carefully worded and spoke of EU citizens 'rights'.

EU citizens currently have the 'right' to travel freely between member states and work and live in any of them.

Aside from that, even if it does mean from a point in time Brexit, in any form with take at least 2 years so it's not even as if a line can be drawn in the sand today over who lives where so, using your analogy, there will be a period where people can move before the 'contract' begins

Of course there will be, but there will also come a point within the next two years where they can't. It really is as simple as that. I don't understand why that would be a problem. I don't think anyone thought that things would change dramatically with regard to immigration laws and travel: there is always a transition period no matter what.

there will also come a point within the next two years where they can't. It really is as simple as that.

Says who?

That hasn't been stated anywhere.

Goes back to my point about people hearing what they want to hear.

I'll amend that then to 'at some point within the next two years the UK will be leaving the European Union and as such freedom of movement may be compromised from that point forwards.'

Sorry to laugh kate but that is hysterical

That's quite some amendment!

But I don't want 'Brexit Light'. I don't want Brexit AT ALL. And I'm sure most remainers and many leavers don't actually want 'Brexit Light' either. So we're left with a very small minority of leavers who do actually get what they want. Way to go, everyone is pissed off. What a fucking mess!

Laugh away bear, it's better than insults :) The point is that Brexit is an established fact. The exact timing of it and exactly what it will look like is reliant on the current government but the overall point - that to apply Brexit retrospectively and to insist everyone who is now here who came under freedom of movement return to countries still in the Union (I know technically we are but you understand my meaning, I am sure) would be chaotic but moreover, unfair. If you came to live in the U.K. in, say, 2014 when the U.K. was part of the European Union then those were the terms you came over under and those are the terms that should remain.

Where have I insulted anyone kate?

People might not like the fact I've questioned their reasons for voting but that's not insulting them.

I never implied any regulations should be backdated- my point is I don't think it will even be relevant as the rules aren't actually looking like they will change anyway.

Not only is it quite some amendment, it's not true. There's been no article 50, and it's not happening today or even in the very near future, so it's clearly not the case that the UK will be leaving the EU at some point within the next 2 years. I wouldn't be referring to Brexit as an established fact, either. Lots more potential twists and turns on that road yet.

And there are people who thought immigration would change dramatically, very soon. Clearly they were wrong and naïve, but there were certainly individuals who were under the impression the foreigners would have to leave immediately.

I didn't say you had insulted anyone; I said that laughing was better than insults. I think future rules and controls over immigration will become necessary (an end to freedom of movement in other words) which incidentally is not the same as 'no immigration' and I think is ultimately something that may be revised in the union in any case, but the point is we are in the very early stages post referendum and nothing should be jumped to as a knee jerk reaction.

Whatever they negotiate has to be affordable and workable. They know they need immigration and they know it will be unworkable to try and round people up and ship them out. So I suspect it will be a case of making it uneconomic for some to stay whilst remaining attractive to others.

I'm really hoping we can deport some rapists and murderers. Probably a pipe dream though 🙄