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Brexit

Brexit-lite here we come

342 replies

Bearbehind · 27/07/2016 17:40

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

OP posts:
ManonLescaut · 19/08/2016 14:49

I'm completely unconcerned by freedom of movement, though, so it's not something I'd find desirable

The question is actually whether the single market is desirable.

HyacinthFuckit · 19/08/2016 19:03

It was an In/Out referendum.

That involves a binary choice on a single issue.

Well. The referendum was. The reality isn't. That's sort of the problem. The public were given two options only, despite the fact that one of them covers all sorts of possibilities ranging from membership in all but name to nothing at all. Rather irresponsible to present something as a binary issue when it's anything but. Still, we are where we are. Interesting times!

TooTiredToTidy · 19/08/2016 20:17

caroldecker

Thanks for taking the time to post a reply, I have some questions, hope you don't mind me clarifying.

Ok I'll bite. Why do we pay for the EU?

Some shared funds which are worthwhile, such as scientific funding collaboration.
Some shared funds, agricultural subsidies (which is 40% of the budget and costs the average family £850 a year according to Oxfam) which are destroying Africa.
Some shared funds, such as structural funds, which overwhelmingly go to Eastern Europe.

So are none of these worth the price (1% of GDP)? What is the price for you, it’s different for different leave voters. Soverignty? Restricting immigration? Not having any EU regulations?
For the agricultural subsidies, what is your suggestion, that we cut them entirely post Brexit?
As you appear (unlike other Leave voters I meet) to be someone who cares about the developed world are you aware that we have committed 0.7% of our GDP in international aid and our EU contribution goes towards this objective?
Also what about soft reasons to remain in the EU? Are you not impressed by the UK's influence in many areas of EU legislation especially in environmental protection, science, technology and therefore our ability to impose our view on 27 other countries and their inhabitants. You believe that we are stronger on our own and can achieve more on our own than being in partnership with an organisation which won the Nobel Peace Prize?

None of these are about free trade. There should be no cost to free trade, as it benefits both parties. This should be a no brainer.

So just for me to understand your point (which you think is a no brainer but for me requires brains for me to understand ;p) what do you define as free trade? is it only have trade deals in the style of WTO that are tariff and quota based only? No regulations? Does free trade in your book mean you want companies on both sides of the deal not to comply to regulations, so that a British company may need to pay its pregnant women maternity pay but a non-British one could just fire them without needing to pay them?

Eu rules. It is acceptable for EU countries to demand UK companies which trade with them have the same rules. Many large companies insist suppliers have certain ISO standards required of suppliers. It is unreasonable for EU countries to insist UK companies which only supply to the US, for example, follow their rules.

Yes but this cuts both ways, in your example, companies that comply with regulations have an automatic right to trade with 27 other countries on equal terms and to access a market of 500 million. How do you see this working for companies in the future? Do we do multiple bi-lateral trade deals to replace the 50 that the EU has and make our manufacturers have 50 number of potentially different regulations to comply with in order to sell to these x number? Or do you think it will happen as it happens now that most countries comply with EU regulations anyway so that they too can access a market of 500 million.

The single market is the daddy of all trade deals, it's the one all other trade deals aspire to. Why? Because it's so comprehensive. Tariffs are easy, quotas are easy. it's the regulations that are difficult especially for services, which make up 78% of our GDP. what are you suggesting we use to replace this, or are you actively voting for us to have a substantially reduced trading profile and therefore economy?

Free movement. Again not necessary for free trade. It is acceptable to allow workers to move (the pre 1992 position), but not anyone for any reason.

Ok i don't agree with you but for the sake of argument it IS necessary if we want to maintain access to the single market.

Free trade is a bonus for all, anything else is arguable. We do not need to pay into funds where we do not want anything out of these funds

For free trade, by which I will take to mean open trade, it needs to be fair to all. If we as a country have rules and regulations to safeguard our rivers from being polluted and for ensuring our labour force has a minimum working hours say but the country we trade with doesn't, is this fair?

I think I've asked this question already but maybe i was unclear - in your ideal Brexit world, what would our relationship with the EU be?

TooTiredToTidy · 19/08/2016 20:30

just5mins.

Shocked? It's an analogy FFS. I was just steering the PP away from eating mould, or feeding it to her DC, or whatever hysteria that was.

Actually, the point was that when we decide to do something that decision has consequences which we need to think through before deciding to do it. I often don't want to tidy (as per username) and would happily vote to do that everyday if i could but I can't because of the consequences.
Sorry this is a long thread, have you explained what you consider to the consequences of your vote are, I may have missed it and don't want to be accused of putting words into your mouth.

So, because I used that analogy, you've concluded that I'm 'oblivious to economic risks'?
Attributing nonsense to other people is quite the Remainer fashion this week, isn't it?

I think I am, like others struggling to understand your points because you don't answer the points with answers. It goes more like this,
Q: "So do you believe we should maintain access to the single market? Is freedom of movement paramount for you?"
A: "Where have I said freedom of movement is paramount, you are putting words into my mouth, you hysterical remainers' (whilst still manifestly ignoring the original question and not providing an answer)

I would as I've already said, very much like to hear your view of what our Brexit looks like, because as a remainer i don't understand 'brexit means brexit'

smallfox2002 · 19/08/2016 21:16

"It is acceptable to allow workers to move (the pre 1992 position), but not anyone for any reason."

So ok, how many people do you think come to the UK to retire each year from the EU? 60% of people arriving from the EU have jobs prior to arrival, would you still allow them to come? What about students?

EU immigrants have a far lower rate of unemployment than UK nationals too, and claim less benefits on average.

smallfox2002 · 19/08/2016 21:18

"It is acceptable for EU countries to demand UK companies which trade with them have the same rules"

Yes, and the WTO does this too, any international trade agreement will have agreements about standards, we will have to mantain EU standards in order to keep accessing the single market.

Next..

caroldecker · 20/08/2016 03:40

tootired I will respond when i have time.

smallfox Current EU regulations apply to all UK businesses, not just those that trade with the EU - a subtle but vital difference.

smallfox2002 · 20/08/2016 08:53

Carol, what regulations would you seek to change? I don't see many getting cut that are to do with safety, the ones I can see going are those that apply to employees. Not good.

caroldecker · 20/08/2016 12:44

smallfox the devil is in the detail - for example, in 2008 the banks did not have too little regulation, they did not have the right regulation to prevent the crash, but lots of regulation that did nothing.
There are many barriers to entry for small firms and some employment rights are very hard for a small firm to deal with - one size does not fit all.

twofingerstoGideon · 20/08/2016 14:20

carol if small firms find employment rights hard to deal with and their employees lose these, a lot of people would (quite rightly) decide they didn't want to work for small employers. Given the choice between working for a large organisation with decent sick pay, maternity/paternity rights etc., and somewhere offering neither of those, I know what I'd choose. If you can't afford to run a business and look after your staff properly, maybe that business isn't viable.

smallfox2002 · 20/08/2016 15:47

True. Small firms will also.lose staff more regularly as people.get jobs with sick pay, mat leave etc.

Essentially if you can't afford to have staff with the protections, you can't afford to have staff

Peregrina · 20/08/2016 15:54

The key here is choice. The ones who don't have a choice, are the ones who will suffer. Like the ones now forced to take zero hours contracts.

caroldecker · 20/08/2016 16:20

If employees are so powerful, then employers do not need to be legally obliged to offer these benefits.

smallfox2002 · 20/08/2016 16:25

To be honest my heart doesn't bleed to much for small business owners who want regulations relaxed, I'm with Ha Joon Chang on why regulations should exist, and I think business owners get an awful lot already from the state.

We need to look after the worker as well as worshipping the myth of wealth creators.

Figmentofmyimagination · 20/08/2016 19:36

Carol as far as employment law goes, the UK is almost the least regulated of all the OECD countries.

Also, you really need to look at the source of these laws before pinning the blame on the EU. For example, European Union law does not regulate dismissals (except discriminatory dismissals) or pay (except equal pay). Most of the laws you don't like are home grown. And many of the 'problems' small businesses encounter are exacerbated by the enormous growth in off the shelf 'business services and health and safety' providers - often offering solutions to problems that don't actually exist, and insurance providers, usually in cahoots with the business service providers. This is a huge growth market. What there is, largely, is a problem of perception - not reality - among small businesses, and the answer is education.

HyacinthFuckit · 21/08/2016 15:14

True. Small firms will also.lose staff more regularly as people.get jobs with sick pay, mat leave etc.

Essentially if you can't afford to have staff with the protections, you can't afford to have staff

Indeed. Small businesses would find themselves effectively restricted to people who through inexperience, skills, attitude or some other factor were unable to do any better. Those whose only deficiency was inexperience would move to a job with full employment rights as soon as they'd got a couple of years under their belt, thus effectively meaning small businesses would do the grunt work of training new entrants and lose them to bigger concerns once they'd become valuable employees. The rest would remain because they'd have no other choice.

A small business in an area where it's an employer's market with no competition might do ok, as might one where you just need people to do grunt work and it doesn't matter about their skills or experience. There are small businesses for whom one or both of these is true. But any small business needing to hire skilled staff would be pretty fucked, locked out of the market for the best workers and losing those they manage to train up themselves as soon as they can leverage their experience to get something better. And yet people think they're being helpful by making this sort of suggestion!

RBeer · 21/08/2016 20:15

Great article from the Economist.

*THERESA MAY knew from the moment she became prime minister last month that Brexit would be her biggest test. Nobody has ever before tried to disentangle a large and sophisticated economy like Britain’s from as intricate and regulated a body as the European Union, after it has been a member for 43 years. Before the June referendum, David Cameron’s government noted that Brexit would be the start, not the end, of a process and warned that it could last up to a decade.

The administrative challenge alone is vast. Mrs May has passed much of it to pro-Brexit ministers known, inevitably, as the three Brexiteers: David Davis, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson. Just setting up a new Department for Exiting the EU under Mr Davis is taking time. The department is now 150-strong, but it will have to expand to more like 400 (including officials in Brussels). Mr Fox’s Department for International Trade needs 1,000 staff, including hundreds of trade negotiators. Relations between the two, and with Mr Johnson’s Foreign Office, can be strained. Already Mr Fox and Mr Johnson have clashed over who runs economic diplomacy. Mr Fox and Mr Davis are hardly best friends.

In this section
Driving away the shadows
To pull or not to pull
A muggle’s game
You feeling lucky?
Keep off truckin’
Paddy Ashdown’s grand design
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Liam Fox
United Kingdom
Politics
International relations
European politics
Given all this, it is not surprising that there should be speculation about when to trigger the Brexit process under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. Brexiteers have always disliked Article 50: it sets a two-year deadline that can be extended only unanimously, and its voting rules exclude the exiting country. Moreover, it is meant to cover mainly administrative issues such as sorting out pensions, relocating EU agencies based in Britain and safeguarding multi-year projects (the Treasury has promised recipients of EU money that it will guarantee their funds, including paying farm subsidies until 2020).

But Article 50 also promises to take account of future relations with the EU. That means, above all, trade arrangements. Yet experienced negotiators say trade deals take far more than two years to negotiate: the Canada-EU agreement has taken seven and has still not been ratified. Brexit will require many such deals, including one with the EU and others with some 58 third countries such as South Korea that have free-trade deals with the EU. Mr Fox has talked grandly of “scoping out” free-trade agreements that Britain might make with America and Australia. But these cannot be pursued seriously until there is more clarity over Britain’s trade relations with the EU.

Some Brexiteers say the simplest course would be to revert to the rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), of which Britain is a member. But this would imply tariffs on some goods, and would not cover most services, including financial services. Nor is falling back on the WTO as easy as it sounds. Britain’s membership is linked to the EU: to rejoin independently, it must agree on a new tariff schedule, which would be hard in areas with shared import quotas, like agriculture. The WTO’s director-general, Roberto Azevedo, likens this to accession—and it needs unanimous approval, including from countries that are not always friends of Britain.

Could the Brexit process be delayed to allow several years of trade talks? Mrs May has said only that she will not trigger Article 50 this year. But letting the start date drift far into next year or even into 2018 could be testing. Tory Brexiteers (and voters) know that Mrs May was a Remainer, so they will pounce on any hints of backsliding. It may be tempting to wait for elections in other EU countries, notably the French presidential election next spring. But putting off Article 50 further might mean its two-year expiry clashes with the European elections and a new EU budget round, both due in 2019. And delays could irritate Britain’s EU partners, who might refuse to negotiate seriously until the government shows that it really means to leave.

One alternative proposed by some in London is to seek prior political agreement to extend the Article 50 process beyond two years. But since the treaty requires unanimous approval at the end of the two years, it may not be possible to secure a guarantee that binds future EU leaders.

Another possibility is an interim arrangement to take effect during the hiatus after Article 50 expires, but before the final shape of future trade deals is clear. This would probably be an off-the-shelf model, such as temporary membership of the European Economic Area that includes Norway. This would preserve full access to the EU’s single market. But it would have two drawbacks. One is that, in trade, the temporary often becomes near-permanent. The other is that, against Brexiteers’ fervent wishes, it would imply continuing to accept free migration from the EU, make payments into the EU budget and abide by all single-market rules.

Life is clearly possible outside the EU. But the process of getting there is full of pitfalls and problems. It is no wonder that Mrs May, contemplating the future from her walking holiday in Switzerland, has said little more than that “Brexit means Brexit”. And it is no wonder that she has dumped the responsibility for delivering it into the laps of the three Brexiteers*

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