Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

ffs just5 I could choose to 'vote against' getting up at 5am to go to work but the upshot would be I'd lose my job,

Voting against something with no indication of the repercussions is at best reckless, at worst fucking stupid.

I voted to Leave the EU to not be a member it's not difficult to understand unless you are so deeply entrenched you can't see any one else's point of view. The largest part of us voted Leave second largest part voted Remain third section didn't care so don't count and no you can't say they are remainders they just didn't care enough to vote. I really can't see the point of asking the same question getting the same answers it's becoming rather like toddlers who just keep saying why? Over and over again. I fail entirely to see any benefit to being a net contributor to a Superstate I didn't ask to be part of, don't agree with its practices including but not exclusively Empire building, overriding member States Veto rights, the Euro, it's financial mismanagement, the appalling treatment of Greece and the dreadful handling of the Migrant crisis. I also strongly object to all those riding the EU gravy train (Neil Kinnock I'm looking at you). I respect your reasons for voting Remain and I'm sorry some of the posters can't do the same for me.

soover what you and your peers are so spectacularly failing to acknowledge is that it is looking very much like we will still be a net contributor to the EU and will still have to abide by its rules.

Can't you see that?

ffs just5 I could choose to 'vote against' getting up at 5am to go to work but the upshot would be I'd lose my job,

It was an In/Out referendum.

That involves a binary choice on a single issue.

In/Out, For/Against. That's how referenda work.

Voting against something with no indication of the repercussions is at best reckless, at worst fucking stupid.

Other people had a different assessment of the possible range of consequences to yours.

None of the subsequent events (so far) have made me reassess mine as 'stupid' but thanks for keeping the tone of the conversation so typically civil

I voted to Leave the EU to not be a member it's not difficult to understand unless you are so deeply entrenched you can't see any one else's point of view.

I'm genuinely interested. I am entrenched in my view it doesn't mean I am not able to understand and hear others. Yes you voted to leave the EU, my original question is AND THEN WHAT? If it's that you don't care, doesn't matter, have no interest, totally trust politicians and ministers to sort out whatever deal we can then let that be your answer. If not then what is it?

The largest part of us voted Leave second largest part voted Remain third section didn't care so don't count and no you can't say they are remainders they just didn't care enough to vote.

Again this is semantics. One third actively voted to leave. Two thirds didn't, you aren't in the majority. Again. Just being in the majority doesn't make you right, doesn't mean those who are not can't question, probe, object. This despite what most leave voters say is actually democracy.

Sorry if it appears I am asking the same questions over and over. I don't know many leave voters personally and am seeking to understand. So for the below:

I fail entirely to see any benefit to being a net contributor to a Superstate I didn't ask to be part of,

⁃	so by this I take it you mean you don't want to be a member of the single market as this would require us to be a contributor?

don't agree with its practices including but not exclusively Empire building

⁃	Where has the EU colonised states and added them to their empire<span class="italic">?</span> 

overriding member States Veto rights,
⁃ What does this mean?

the Euro,
⁃ the referendum wasn't to join this?

it's financial mismanagement, the appalling treatment of Greece and the dreadful handling of the Migrant crisis.
⁃ do you believe then that a post Brexit Britain would be a fairer society, be more willing to help a country like Greece and treat migrants better? Because if you do, I have a totally different view of pro-Brexit voters than you do

I also strongly object to all those riding the EU gravy train (Neil Kinnock I'm looking at you).
⁃ every government has a gravy train, do you think a post Brexit UK won't?

I respect your reasons for voting Remain and I'm sorry some of the posters can't do the same for me.
⁃ agreed, but think this swings both ways.

Bear like your last analogy. Funny. Wish I could use that too in my day to day life without consequences.

"I don't want to do any more housework in this house ever. End of"

Your children are eating mould off the floor.

Oh.

It's more like opting in or out of a trade union or professional organisation, but let's not spoil the fun of talking nonsense, eh?

*Caroldecker
*
I did not call leave voters fantasists. I called the scenario where we maintain access to a market where 57% of our experts go to whilst reducing immigration and not contributing any money to as fantasist. So other than this what is it you are voting for? Reducing our economy in return for controls over immigration or what?

And 10 years? You think Brexshit will be sorted in 10 years? This shows you have absolutely no clue of the complexity of leaving the EU. It's a mite more complicated than a tick in a box and the words 'end of'.

Just5 It's more like opting in or out of a trade union or professional organisation, but let's not spoil the fun of talking nonsense, eh?

Sorry I literally don't understand this?

Just5 not sure if you literally don't get the point we're making or being wilfully stubborn about answering the question.

When you vote to do something that vote has consequences. I'm not talking about this piece of economic data or that survey or even more farcically the amount of gold medals. I'm talking about what does this country do next. We need to trade right? Are you saying we don't want to trade with the EU? If we don't where do we replace that market? If we do, how do you expect to do so

Again. If you are a voter who is happy to have answered the question but do not care/not in the least worried what state the country is left in then say so, I'll stop bothering you. Genuinely wanting to understand your viewpoint :)

Just got back from dinner with my one known Brexiteer friend. OMG. For an intelligent adult I am shocked. He/she admitted to thinking that voting out was to show/indicate that "our country is full" and thought this would stop all migration including from non-EU countries. He/she then went on to talk in length about terrorism and IS. I tried to point out that this was not really an EU issue either. He/she then told me that everything will be alright. I asked how long this would take and the reply was its already alright now. I had to point out that we haven't left the EU yet and won't for a few years. Shocked to find such ignorance/racism amongst my friends.

Are you saying we don't want to trade with the EU?

Have I said anything that even remotely sounds like that?

Genuinely wanting to understand your viewpoint :)

No you don't. No intelligent adult who seriously wanted a sensible conversation would wiggle on about 'Brexshit' and children eating mould from the floor and put entirely invented words in their interlocutor's mouth.

You don't understand how referenda work but you just want to bitch on endlessly about how clueless anyone who disagrees with you is.

It's boring TBH.

Wiffle^

*Just5
*
Genuinely sorry you think that. You've misinterpret most of what I wrote, sorry if it's me not writing clearly enough.

I'll start again, but more simpler. if it's truly too boring for you I'd understand if you don't want to discuss it anymore. I live in a remain area have only remain friends so I want to understand from more moderate leave voters what they expect next.

What does leaving the EU mean to you in terms of priorities? Control over immigration or having access to the single market?

Ok I'll bite. Why do we pay for the EU?

Some shared funds which are worthwhile, such as scientific funding collaboration.
Some shared funds, agricultural subsidies (which is 40% of the budget and costs the average family £850 a year according to Oxfam) which are destroying Africa.
Some shared funds, such as structural funds, which overwhelmingly go to Eastern Europe.

None of these are about free trade. There should be no cost to free trade, as it benefits both parties. This should be a no brainer.

Eu rules. It is acceptable for EU countries to demand UK companies which trade with them have the same rules. Many large companies insist suppliers have certain ISO standards required of suppliers. It is unreasonable for EU countries to insist UK companies which only supply to the US, for example, follow their rules.

Free movement. Again not necessary for free trade. It is acceptable to allow workers to move (the pre 1992 position), but not anyone for any reason.

Free trade is a bonus for all, anything else is arguable. We do not need to pay into funds where we do not want anything out of these funds.

Marmite we are trying to move past the 'all Leave voters are thick and racist' narrative clearly they aren't it's not helpful to the thread I could give you plenty of anecdotal evidence about Remainder bullying and ignorance doesn't make all Remainders the same if Too tired wants answers posts like your with it oh so subtle name calling nastiness just drive us away.

Too tired
No objection tions to you questioning the vote but e everyone needs to live by the outcome
Yes
Greece: encouraged to join when not financially in a position to. Colonised is your take on Empire building a term referring to the inevitable growth of an organisation NOT warfare driven physical colonizing
Yes
Maastritch treaty, Lisbon treaty. I have no faith in member veto rights
Yes
At least it's one less gravy train layer
I do respect your views

Bloody kindle

Err a bit shocked by Dacre's analogy offered of leaving the EU being 'more like opting out of being a member of a trade union or a professional association'.

To leave a trade union, you have to send an email and cancel your monthly direct debit if you have one. To leave a professional organisation, you just don't renew your subscription at the end of the year....

I hope not too many of those who voted to leave the EU hold these kinds of views - although in many ways, in an economy so dependent on consumer demand, it is good if lots of people are oblivious to the economic risks. It also helps explain why retail spending in the high street is still holding up, and more influenced by the sunny weather than the brexit vote. What a weird world we live in, where ignorance is bliss.

We cannot have no freedom of movement and be in the single market on our terms.

Please leavers, stop saying we can. We can't.

Err a bit shocked by Dacre's analogy offered of leaving the EU being 'more like opting out of being a member of a trade union or a professional association'.

Shocked? It's an analogy FFS. I was just steering the PP away from eating mould, or feeding it to her DC, or whatever hysteria that was.

I hope not too many of those who voted to leave the EU hold these kinds of views - although in many ways, in an economy so dependent on consumer demand, it is good if lots of people are oblivious to the economic risks

So, because I used that analogy, you've concluded that I'm 'oblivious to economic risks'?

Okay then.

Attributing nonsense to other people is quite the Remainer fashion this week, isn't it?

We cannot have no freedom of movement and be in the single market on our terms.

Please leavers, stop saying we can. We can't.

I haven't said we can and I don't think we can. I'm completely unconcerned by freedom of movement, though, so it's not something I'd find desirable.

This will all make more sense to some of you once you stop lumping all 'Leavers' in together in your minds as all thinking alike.

Just5 thanks for the post. I will post a more detailed reply late today. I do however agree this debate isn't helped by calling each side ignorant.

Overall not everyone in the EU is perfect I don't think any remain voter thinks so, so what is the price in your view? Some leavers are 'leave at any cost' but we all have a line I think.

If freedom of movement isn't important to you then do you think maintaining access to the single market is? If no single market what do you see as UK's trade relationship going forward?

Are you not worried that Brexit will bring on the collapse of the Union with Scotland going independent and N.Ireland reunifying with Ireland?

Just5mins - I didn't mean to lump everyone together, but it is (some) leavers who say that (i.e. not remainers).

I find it unhelpful as it implies that Brexit is easy and doesn't bring hard, stark choices which I would like everyone, leave or remain, to acknowledge to be true.