Brexit-lite here we come

[Bearbehind]

Theresa May has today said the UK wants to maintain the closest possible economic ties with the EU and to guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the EU.

Are any Leave voters actually happy with that?

No Grandad, I can't give yo more info on the regulations as I am only stating what his wife has told my

And there is a perfect example of why Leave voters get a hard time.

You stated you were giving and example of how EU regulations can affect businesses and make it uneconomic to continue yet it's based purely on hearsay and you don't even know the regulation being referred to.

On the face of it, restricting how long a person can drive a vehicle for is completely sensible and should be welcomed.

Bear,

Do you accept that a union requires tax and currency harmonisation to have any chance of working long term? Are you in favour of this?

No I don't accept that is the case.

On that basis we'd be looking to harmonise all our affairs with everyone we plan to build a union with.

Unions can exist without full tax and currency harmonisation.

Still waiting for your example of a petty rule that has affected you and which will change by leaving the EU though.

They do pay the fees like the local students, that's the point

I should clarify that's if you're doing a full degree. On an Erasmus year, you pay around 15% of your UK tuition fees.

On the face of it, restricting how long a person can drive a vehicle for is completely sensible and should be welcomed.
But it's not an EU area of interest. The EU does set drivers' hours rules for both goods and passenger vehicles but goods vehicles are defined as those over 3500kg and passenger vehicles are those with seats for 9 or more passengers.

grandad, I meant that it is a sensible thing to do so, even if it had been an EU rule, it was never a good example to hold up as destroying UK businesses.

If you remember Grandad I said he had a small mini bus and I'm pretty sure it was over 9 seats so that would be why the EU driver rules would apply.
www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules

Bear,

That is correct. A union involving free movement of goods and people also requires tax and currency harmonisation.

If you do not believe this, show me a successful counter example.

If you do not have this countries can compete using preferable tax rates or devaluations.

EU drivers' hours rules have been in place since the 70s, and they're very similar to the GB rules which were in place since before that. They're very widely regarded as a good thing.

Peregrina - In a rural area like this there aren't loads of people looking for this type of casual work. It was a one man band so worked as an income for one family well. He only worked for 3 hours a day in term time mon to fri so hardly worked into the ground. If he wanted a holiday he would have it in the school holidays with his young children by not taking on any weekend work.

You don't convince me. My late parents lived in a rural area with few buses and eventually had to give up driving. Most of the local taxi firms were only too happy to have regular business from elderly folk like them to do regular trips to the hospitals or supermarkets, but made it clear that they weren't available at school run times.

My stepdaughter studied in France for a year in the late 90s and she didn't get a grant or free flights.

I'm not sure how your stepdaughter arranged her year in France, but she would have been better off doing it through ERASMUS. I studied in France for a year during the late 90s and received both a grant and some free travel back to the UK.

The fact remains that if UK students are not allowed to be part of ERASMUS, the number of students able to afford to study abroad will drop dramatically. This may not matter to those who have never considered studying abroad to be of much importance, but there are people out there who would benefit hugely from the experience who might now be denied that opportunity.

I am rather enjoying this foray into the world of driver regulation.

The thing is, the GB rules apply in the case that this chap is running a school minibus run (assuming it is

If you do not believe this, show me a successful counter example

For all its faults, the EU operates this way and is not beyond repair.

Stop trying to detract from the fact you can't come up with a petty, self serving rule as Figment original asked you to.

I don't think it qualifies as a 'school minibus' unless it's owned and operated by the school.

The fact is though that in this case he is subject to an EU rule, but it's a rule that's been in place for many years and you can bet your life will remain in place (or even get stricter) after Brexit. Unless he's had this business since the 70s then it's not a new rule that's just been imposed on the UK out of the blue. And it's a good thing anyway. Do we want people driving minibuses and trucks around without having adequate rest?

It's like Vodafone complaining that the EU have acted to restrict roaming charges. Yes, it's an EU ruling that's costing them money, but it's for the greater good (I bet that one doesn't apply to us after Brexit).

In response to OP, Im very happy with it. I know remainers wanted to put the leave voters in a bucket of a nasty racist uneducated mob who wanted nothing more than to get ships lined up on our docksides to 'kick out foreigners' but that wasnt what leave voters voted for. Amongst all the other economic, self governance reasons, the issue of migration was one of Controlled migration. Thats it simples.

Remain refused to support ANY migration controls. The EU refused to support ANY migration controls. I disagree and voted leave.

Why is this so hard for anyone to understand. Sad if the EU now change their stance and allow all members states to control migration, but take that up with the EU, not leave voters. They should have listened far far earlier, and they should be listening to their own populations now.

I'll just pop off again now into my uneducated knuckle dragging racist box..

I know remainers wanted to put the leave voters in a bucket of a nasty racist uneducated mob who wanted nothing more than to get ships lined up on our docksides to 'kick out foreigners' but that wasnt what leave voters voted for.

You know nothing of the sort about what Remainers voted for. Undoubtedly some Leavers, by no means all, voted to kick the foreignors out - mostly ones who were nothing to do with the EU anyway.

Tony Blair mucked it up when he could have had a moratorium on Eastern Europeans coming in, thinking that they wouldn't want to.

What I would like to see from the Leave camp is some concrete plans. So far, I have seen little more than hot air e.g. David Davis airily saying that we will be out by 2020 and not having the faintest idea of how long trade agreements take to negotiate.

Corcory I think there have been strong feelings on both sides and some people inevitably get carried away. I don't think that you can attribute showing a lack of respect to the remain side in particular. It is the divisiveness and bitterness I find sad (and I nearly left Mumsnet after two pages of chippy vitriol - now deleted and the poster banned - was directed at me on another thread) but this is affecting lives and identities in ways a general election never did. I know many people who felt physically shocked on the morning of the result and I have certainly never felt more strongly about any political issue in my life.

However just to repeat the link I posted on the Erasmus scheme. 15000 UK students took advantage of it last year and an even larger number come to the UK and benefit UK universities. That is enough for every student to know someone who has benefitted and it is almost always a positive life changing experience both educationally and personally. As others have highlighted the key thing is that anyone who is at university can go, so it is an opportunity as available to all regardless of background as university is. Of course anyone can chose to study abroad if they have the means and opportunity. Opportunities that are needs blind though, despite all the efforts of universities to enter global partnerships, are thin on the ground, so mostly in future it will only be the well off who get these opportunities www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jul/23/erasmus-scheme-exclude-british-students-brexit

Just like Chris above, I wanted controlled immigration going forward but for all existing EU migrants to have full rights to stay here. I also wanted to keep close economic ties with the EU. This is what the Leave campaign suggested would happen from the start ... even Farage.

Gratesnakes I'm interested what you mean by close economic ties with Europe. The EU have made it quite clear that there will be no single market access without freedom of movement. What sort of economic access do you envisage alongside immigration controls? Genuinely interested.

Grace, I do not know how the negotiations will go, but what we need is a bespoke set of trading arrangements advantageous to as many kinds of UK businesses as possible and also acceptable to our trading partners in the EU. I hope the govt will take it slowly and consult with all sectors in the UK and the EU to achieve this. Everyone will want zero or low tariffs. EU businesses need this just as much as UK businesses do. We are trading partners not adversaries.

We also need to move from uncontrolled freedom of movement to controlled immigration - because that is the clear mandate from the people. As you say, the negotiations will be interesting! I hope the pragmatism of the business community will override the idealogy of some EU politicians - there are a lot of elections coming up fortunately.

The IMF's own report on its handling of the bailouts is interesting. Maybe attitudes to a lot of things are changing in Europe:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36909107

gratesnskes you mention ideology of EU policitians however your thoughts on what negotiations should lead to is about as idealistic as it comes.

You say we need controlled immigration as it is the mandate of the people and low/ zero tariffs because the EU needs us as much as we need them- do you really think the EU are just going to roll over and say OK, if that's what you want that's what we'll have to do?

Bear,

The EU want to continue trading with us. Equally, I agree, Brexit cannot be a free option for Uk. So it will probably consist of tariffs for some industries, access to the free market for others. Equaly, I don't see the tariffs being so high as to seriously damage trade.

Are you of the view that the EU will no longer desire to trade with us?

larry, I'm not answering any more of your questions until you give us an example of a petty self serving EU rule that affects you and we'll be able to change outside the EU

do you really think the EU are just going to roll over and say OK, if that's what you want that's what we'll have to do?

No I don't! I think it will be very difficult to achieve and it will take a lot of hard work. Like most things worth striving for.

Bear,

That is fine, seeing as you failed to answer something far more significant, the inherently self destructive nature of the Union.