A thread for Leave voters to list the positives of leaving the EU

[Bearbehind]

Seeing as the previous thread is nearly full and no one on it has given us a single tangible positive that we can expect from leaving the EU as opposed to staying I thought I'd start a shiny new thread with a thousand opportunities.

First of all you seem to have listened to all the dome Sayers.
In fact I know a damn site more than that, having in the past been involved in helping to draw up grant applications. Yes, you look for funding where you can, and no, it's not easy to come by.

Give them a chance, there will be announcements soon.
So what, you mothball all the equipment, and sack the staff until such time as the funding comes through? Even mothballing equipment costs money, and the staff, being educated and mobile, go elsewhere. So, if the money eventually comes through, you have additional costs of re-recruiting staff and re-tooling equipment. Governments have not got a good record on Research Funding. Being a PPE graduate of Oxford isn't the best preparation for understanding scientific and medical research.

we haven't done that well doing that so far. We have done considerably better than you seem to think.

So go on... Remainers... tel me why you voted to stay

I love that myself and my children (and other people's children) have the opportunity to live and work in the 27 other nations.

I like the sense of community it brings, I feel European.

I don't want the unity of the country threatened, including the peace in NI.

I believe our economy is better served inside the EU including the finance services in the city. I think we are in a much stronger negotiating position inside a bigger trading block than on our own.

Somebody up thread said they would rip my reasons for staying apart. Please do, I will listen, if you're arguments add up I might even change my opinions.

To be fair, it was no more ridiculous than the doom sayer stuff... all that we will be destitute, a laughing stock, bigotry bigotry, they all voted for bigotry...

Biased BBC barely gave the demos coverage.

Don't I just know this. Or if there is coverage, the estimate is 'about a thousand people took part' when you know yourself, that it must be 10 times that.

I love that myself and my children (and other people's children) have the opportunity to live and work in the 27 other nations. You still will have and all the rest of the world's countries too. Visas exist... a UK passport is usually very welcome.

I like the sense of community it brings, I feel European. Well, you are European, and still will be... the UK is in Europe. But like other European countries, who also feel European, won't be in the EU!

I don't want the unity of the country threatened, including the peace in NI. Not sure that is down to Brexit... Scotland had a referendum before Brexit; Ireland has had a number of incidents over the last few years, the peace was never all that stable, as many Irish on both sides will tell you.

I believe our economy is better served inside the EU including the finance services in the city. I think we are in a much stronger negotiating position inside a bigger trading block than on our own Yes, and other trading blocks have always been available, the EU has prevented us from trading freely with many of them... that and other people disagree with you, thought differently, and voted accordingly!

On the science funding point. It's not just about the money (although given the current government's view on science and facts, i don't believe they will match the loss) it's also about collaboration. It's about making contact, links and strong teams with other experts.

Yes this can be done on a wider basis but it takes years to get to that stage, all the agreements, level playing field etc. Decades, not just years. Our science is among the best in the world. Huge financial benefit. Is currently going down the pan

Yes our government could bring in its own environmental legislation. It is easier to do though if your competitors are also bound by the same legislation. Particularly for climate change or species/habitats that cross boundaries.

Would say that it does currently appear that our environmental legislation plus climate change targets are definitely looking like they are on shaky ground. All that (unspecified ) red tape that will be cut post Brexit.

I look forward to saving £5 a year on my water bills so raw sewage can be discharged to sea (no need to clean=lower bills!) plus a £10 a year electricity bill saving because the pits have reopened (local employment!), new coal fired power stations produce cheap power (with no air quality limits!) Fracking with no limits!

Ffs. I thought we lived in the 21st century. Not harking back to the commonwealth (seriously? That was a reason for voting leave?)

I was at a seminar this morning and after the absolutely excellent speaker there was a Q&A session

Q : Will Brexit result in the collapse of the whole European Project?

A : You sound like a conspiracy theorist. There is a part of the Tory right that thinks because the EU was thought up by French Catholics it must be doomed to failure. Its not.

the rest of the room sniggered

the speaker is the chief economist of HSBC

OurBlance: give one positive reason for leaving the EU. What will we GAIN? One thing.

ourblanche
Yes, and other trading blocks have always been available, the EU has prevented us from trading freely with many of them...
Which ones?
Please name the trading bloc that the EU refuses to deal with and thus that the UK was blocked from ?

The protest vote argument is facile. What were these people protesting against? Human rights, legal aid, workers rights and environmental protections - and some directives about food labeling? These were anti-democratic restrictions on our sovereignty were they? Just because poor people hadn't benefited as they should from the EU doedes not mean that they won't be worse off without it. They are the ones who will be pulverised with turbo-charged austerity if the economy slumps - not Jonson, Garage and Leadsom. They'll be insulated from all of that.

What other antidemocratic supra-national law shall we get rid of next? How about the Geneva Convention? Ordinary folk don't get a say in that do they?

Just admit that you were lied to and used by demagogues and political opportunists - those anti-establishment renegades Boris Jonson, Michael 'Lord Chancellor' Gove and Nigel 'personal fortune of 2 million' Farage. They were laughing at you, claiming to be against the 'elites' while lying through their teeth.

what do you believe will be better out of the EU than in it?

Many things. All the reasons that have been detailed on all the other threads by many Leave supporters. You clearly don't agree with the reasons given, but that doesn't mean they haven't been explained many times already.

Brexiters could ask Remainers the same question. Give us one good reason why "remain" would have been a good thing. And you could talk all night about money, and EU policies, and how clever people vote remain, but Brexiters would say Osborne's punishment budget evaporated, the law will change slowly and only if we wish, and how Brexiters aren't actually all stupid racists. Clearly, millions of people didn't think the remain arguments were "good reasons", so it works both ways; you haven't given them one good reason either.

"But where's the plan???" I hear several times a day (e.g. Nick Clegg on the radio today). I am not at all worried that there isn't yet an exact plan of what happens next. Theresa May is very sensible to spend a reasonable amount of time gathering a wealth of different opinions and ideas, and only then to trigger article 50. That's the plan, and flexibility is an advantage. When a negotiating position is ready, it's normal for both sides to set out their best and firmest starting point on all the issues, not immediately divulging what they might "settle for". And the EU's starting point will, of course, be exactly what they would most like. The result will be somewhere in between on most issues, and of course it's not possible to see exactly where that will be yet.

Initially there won't be much change in the laws for our country. They will gradually diverge with plenty of time for discussion and debate on each issue, both in parliament and elsewhere.

A4: Name one one of those things.

many things

FFS - just give me one that hasn't been debunked on said threads.

Original post at 20:04:38
MNers, who profess an opinion, tend to be Remainers. As the forum is full of erudite, verbose women who use the forum to speak out on many subjects and is often accused of being Middle class and London centric it is probably not surprising that the Leave voice is smaller and quite easily squished by weight of opposing voices
Basically saying on MN (ie on this forum and not in RL) the leavers are in the minority

Reply 20:24:25
it is probably not surprising that the Leave voice is smaller and quite easily squished by weight of opposing voices
Of course it is surprising hmm
Leave are not a tiny proportion of the population. There were more Leave than Remain voters; their voices should be the loudest.

Further reply 20:31:21
it is probably not surprising that the Leave voice is smaller and quite easily squished by weight of opposing voices
Good grief, I had this whole thing wrong after all and can stop posting. For the past four weeks, I've been labouring under the misapprehension that there was a majority who voted to Leave

Oh no there's no twisting of words here to beat someone down with. No, none at all

Negotiations cannot begin until Article 50 is triggered. Do you realise how little power that gives us in the negotiations? It's rather like someone offering you a job but saying a contract can only be negotiated once you've resigned from your current one. Merkel and others will be quite justified in giving us a shitty deal so as to discourage secession of other member states.

And then we'll be having to trade with the EU but without any say in the terms. Taking back control eh?

An advantage borrowed from another thread: employers won't be able to exploit cheap E Europe labour as easily.

Except, employers who wish to exploit labour always manage to do so. e.g. Remember the Chinese Morecambe Bay cockle pickers who drowned?

You still will have and all the rest of the world's countries too. Visas exist... a UK passport is usually very welcome.

Yes, that all works very well if you're a brain surgeon, you can go anywhere and get a job. But what if you're unskilled and there are no jobs in your own country but you can go abroad and get a job fruit picking, or shelf stacking, or working in a care home, maybe my children will be unskilled and want to work abroad. It looks like we may well be keeping freedom of movement (hopefully) so this might end up being fine.

Well, you are European, and still will be

I won't be a member of the EU though will I? I feel my flag and EU passport are being ripped from me, I am heartbroken about it. I realise this is an emotional reason but it is very important to me.

Not sure that is down to Brexit... Scotland had a referendum before Brexit; Ireland has had a number of incidents

Brexit has undoubtedly thrown oil on the fire, don't know how you can think it hasn't when it so obviously has.

Yes, and other trading blocks have always been available

So you WANT to be part of a trading block, you think trading blocks are a good thing? I think other countries will have us over a barrel if we're outside the EU , we aren't even able to feed ourselves. Plus as I understand it a big chunk of the work in the city has to be physically located in the EU, that'll be a massive amount of work to loose. As for trading with the rest of the world, you just have to go into any shop to see that we already do.

Most things haven't been debunked, you just think they have...

Our own government deciding where taxpayers money goes, not the EU
Being able to vote out the decision makers and those who craft our laws
Making all of said laws in the UK
Retaining our sovereignty
Staying out of the euro, potential EU army, ever-close union (no, a veto would not necessarily be used if we didn't have the right PM)

... and all the other things from various threads which I am not going to list, you can read them yourself if you want to fail to "debunk" them yet again.

I know what you're going to say. "But we can't trust the Tories, only the EU can give us good things!" Incorrect. We don't need the EU. If things are wrong here, we should be sorting them out, not handing over power and sovereignty to the EU and absolving ourselves of the responsibility to demand decent healthcare, proper rights for everyone, etc. It's infantilising and makes us dependent on the EU (which is why some people are dazed that we're not following their plan any more).

I feel my flag and EU passport are being ripped from me, I am heartbroken about it.

And yet none of us were asked whether we wanted to take on an EU proto-nationality, or a new flag and passport. They were imposed on us with the Maastricht Treaty whether we liked it or not. I was very happy not being in the EU, and won't miss it at all.

I'm glad there are many things. Just that as bearbehind said, these have been debunked.

Would also say, I strongly disagree with your view that laws will change gradually. The comment 'bonfire of the directives' springs to mind. The oft repeated 'light touch regulation' is another. Stuff that benefits those in power to remove. So stuff that protects workers, health & safety and the environment.

Also, how do you know that the deal we will end up with, will be somewhere between what we want and what they want? When we don't remotely know what those positions might look like? That outcome requires equal partners. It is by no means certain. There is a price to membership of a group. Cake and eat it scenarios are not looking likely. ....

Retaining our sovereignty

What do you actually mean by that?

It is often quoted but what will that actually look like?

Being able to vote out the decision makers and those who craft our laws

That one has gone swimmingly hasn't it? Who voted our current PM in? Who got to choose those now directly responsible for shaping Brexit?

Making all of said laws in the UK

Except those we'll have to retain/ accept in order to facilitate trade agreements.

Basically saying on MN (ie on this forum and not in RL) the leavers are in the minority

Is this actually a known fact? Did anybody do an proper headcount? Further to that (whether or not this is true that Leavers are overwhelmingly outnumbered on MN) what does "being squished" actually look like - as opposed to, say, people simply disagreeing with one's arguments on a talkboard? The entire EURef topic seems to consist almost entirely of disagreement and talking at cross-purposes, so are both sides "being squished" or just whichever is one's preferred side?

I voted leave. My main reason is that I believe the EU to be too large, diverse and fractured to be a successful and united group. It is driven by a minority of countries who force other countries to toe their line, it is financially a mess with the Euro seriously struggling and countries like Greece in financial ruins, nobody appears to have any viable solution (or even feasible suggestions of what to do) about the immigration issue which is highly concerning. I honestly doubt even without Brexit that the EU would be in existence as it was at the start of this year in 5 years time, and I'm glad Britain is out before it is brought to its knees by forces beyond its management.

I know there will be huge difficulties and challenges ahead, I'm not underestimating the issues Britain will face, but I'm genuinely excited to see where Britain will go with this opportunity to strike out on our own with British interests at the heart of every decision. We are a nation of incredibly talented, intelligent, resourceful, innovative and ground-breaking people and as long as we can get strong leadership to ensure Britain's best interests are protected in the negotiations to come I believe in 5 years time we will look back on this referendum as a new beginning of our great nation.