A thread for Leave voters to list the positives of leaving the EU

[Bearbehind]

Seeing as the previous thread is nearly full and no one on it has given us a single tangible positive that we can expect from leaving the EU as opposed to staying I thought I'd start a shiny new thread with a thousand opportunities.

I don't agree with any of that John. I'm not a Tory, but yes, I think Theresa May and her new cabinet are very interested in making things fair for everyone. Trade agreements are negotiated so yes, Britain gets a say. EU members get no opportunity to make bilateral trade deals with non-EU countries, so there's nothing even there to have a say on.

And no, most people on the leave side aren't ignorant, racist, or harking back to 1945, as has been explained many times on the EU threads. Many are sensible, innovative and looking outward to the world, instead of the false sense of security of the EU which is still attempting to meet goals it set in the mid 20th century.

The EU is far too influenced by large corporations who can afford to lobby them constantly. As Irvine Welsh says in the Guardian:

"elites and their asset-to-debt-swapping practices have become more isolated and exposed for what they are: tools to exploit their citizens, reducing them to serfdom in the process."... "European integration, despite its visionary evocations, has always had elitist roots."

The "elite" in terms of the EU are those who achieve money or power from it, as do quite a few of the "experts" from the fields of politics, the corporations, big banks and entertainment. It is these "elites" and "experts" which the leave side doesn't agree with. It's not referring to where people stand with their class/income/job/education.

No one's wage or living standards are going to increase as a result of Brexit

Really? You'd better polish your crystal ball, it seems to be malfunctioning

here's a positive for you - the NHS is no longer under threat from the TTIP

Read the guardian pick comment at the bottom of this article. It's shocking, hopefully brexit will raise the immigration issue enough so we deal with this most serious issue both for our own sake and the sake of the many decent people just trying to flee war. Imagine fleeing their warperd depravity to just run into them here. :(
www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jul/20/the-returnees-what-happens-when-refugees-decide-to-go-back-home#comment-79461611

warped*

John us not bring in the Eurozone didn't stop us from being forced to pay for the financial issues in the Eurozone however.

*being

Winterbiscuit: It is entirely possible that Tories will, stealthily, strip back those rights and those pertaining to environmental protections.

Anyone believing May's conversion to Ordoliberal, democratic capitalism is naive. The Tories will use this as a further opportunity to strip back the state - because they're Tories, and that's what Tories do.

And A4: this trope of the 'elites', flung around by both left and right, is completely crass. Or at least conflating the LSE and Polly Toynbee with some sort of corporate cabal who convene at Bilderberg meetings is sophomoric drivel. Of course there are obscenely rich, corrupt corporatists in the world - but belonging to that kind of strata has got nothing to do with empirical authority. That there are nefarious powerful people in the world should not mean we just reject ALL authority indisvriminately. What a crazy notion that is.

Really, what you are saying is that we should reject ANYONE with any credentials and just lapse into epistemic relativism. Real funny that these people who've had enough of experts would no doubt go along with the 'elite' team of clinicians in charge of their triple heart bypass op.

And really all this stuff about the establishment is just fre-market ideology respun. Down with regulation, government, professionals, 'people who think they know best' and up with plucky entrepreneurs liberated from all that bureaucracy that requires them not to treat their employees like shit.

I'm sick of hearing about the 'elite'. It's simplistic and adolescent.

ilovegsd, your list appears to have been taken directly from Leave propaganda. Picking one:-

Hopefully.... The whole world will have the same hoops to jump through, points needed and boxes ticked to move here

Where has anyone even intimidated this will happen since Leave actually won?

Anyone who touted it before the referendum has done a complete u-turn and conceded that freedom of movement won't change much if at all.

I'll pick another 'positive' from redaticos list since catergorically stating the EU are corrupt and never get their accounts sign off has been debunked.

Austerity is a key EU economic policy.

Who has said the purse strings will fly open outside the EU?

TM has said quite the opposite, ie, it's not even going to be called austerity, it's just living within our means.

That doesn't sound like a positive to me?

Brexit positive:

rise of pro-EU feelings in the rest of Europe!

www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2016/07/15/le-brexit-provoque-un-regain-du-sentiment-europeen_4969720_3214.html

Really, what you are saying is that we should reject ANYONE with any credentials

No. You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

conflating the LSE and Polly Toynbee with some sort of corporate cabal who convene at Bilderberg meetings is sophomoric drivel.

Actually, Garicano, Luis (ESP), Professor of Economics at the LSE, attended Bilderberg this year. No Brexiteers were invited. Bilderberg 2016: Pro-EU Guest List Confirmed.

On this List of Bilderberg participants from previous conferences, we see names such as Cameron, Osborne, Merkel, Lagarde, Kenneth Clarke, Ed Balls, Bill Gates, Shirley Williams, Thatcher, Blair, George W. Bush, and Hillary Clinton.

Polly Toynbee is of course the granddaughter of Arnold J. Toynbee, who described nationalism as a "false god" and recommended a world state.

here's a positive for you - the NHS is no longer under threat from TTIP

When we come to negotiate a trade deal with the US, we will end up having to accept an even worse version of TTIP because our negotiating power is less than that of 28 countries. Also, our government was the one most in favour of signing up to TTIP - the French are against it and there has been a sizable movement against it across Europe. Now we are at the mercy of the Tories and what they want for the NHS. What do you think that might be? Clue: we will get TTIP on steroids.

And before you say we can vote the tories out, I can assure you that they will be here for the next decade, if not longer thanks to our ineffective opposition and the boundary changes.

" the NHS is no longer under threat from the TTIP"

This frustrates me, there are going to caveats in TTIP, similar to those in CETA that protect national governments interests, reserving them the right to rule, and to protect national monopolies and state provision of services.

But keep repeating it, I could start going "project fear" just for the delicious irony of it all.

"not bring in the Eurozone didn't stop us from being forced to pay for the financial issues in the Eurozone however."

The UK has paid £6.5 bn to bail out Ireland and Portugal, no one else, and had agreed an opt out on future bailouts. The UK has not made a contribution via the EU for the other eurozone bailouts: the three Greek ones, in 2010, 2012 and 2015 and for the Spain and Cyprus bailouts in 2012.

Again, facts are great :)

'Northern Ireland will only become bloody again if the people in any part of Ireland allow it.'

This attitude really demonstrates wonderfully how few fucks your average British person cares about the fragile peace in NI.

Yes and I am sure they are all really eight foot high lizards who sup on the blood of newborns at Bohemian Grove too.

And really all this stuff about the establishment is just fre-market ideology respun. Down with regulation, government, professionals, 'people who think they know best' and up with plucky entrepreneurs liberated from all that bureaucracy that requires them not to treat their employees like shit.

So true - why else would people like Arron Banks bankroll it?

Exactly Greenwood. Thank you.

TTIP was influenced by the needs of 28 countries Smallfox and very little notice was taken of the needs of our unique NHS so when we come to negotiate our own treaty I can see no reason why our own specific needs wouldn't be taken into account. The title of this thread was 'A thread for leave voters to list the positives of leaving the EU'.
Again anyone giving their ideas are shot down in flames in no uncertain terms by the likes of John. There is no reasoned discussion.

I love the elites narrative, its utterly vacuous. If it were elite kicking why was it supported by one billionaire non dom hereditary peer, two billionaire non dom knights of the realm (who own the Ritz), Rupert Murdoch. Why were so many of the really rich keen to be out?:

Why were so many of those in favour in very privileged positions anyway, and had many, many vested interests in removing EU regulations.

The elites narrative is one that encourages a disenfranchised part of society to vote, to "kick those in power" by another elite who would never be able to get into power if they honestly said what their intentions are. They just convinced the turkeys to vote for Christmas instead.

There is no reasoned discussion because you keep stating stuff that isn't true.

Both the EU commission and the Government have said repeatedly that the NHS would be protected and exempt from ISDS as part of their exemptions for the services provided in "in the exercise of governmental authority".

There are also to be caveats protecting government owned utilities INCLUDING HEALTH SERVICES.

All of the 28 members have utilities and health service provision arrangements that they would wish to protect.

I'd advise you to stop posting about things you clearly lack any understanding of, you just keep clutching at straws to defend your position but can't. you get "shot down" cause your arguments display no intellectual rigour, not because people are biased.

I have asked several times on several threads for people to tell me a positive. The last time I pretty much begged. I am DESPERATE for someone to explain it to me.

No-one has, sob, sob.

My favourite is when Leave voters - and the Leave campaign - go 'oh, I can't see that happening!' as if that means it can't happen!

The EU won't really let us do whatever trade we like without having freedom of movement? Oh I can't see that happening!

This from John is worth repeating, infinitely -

Just admit that you were lied to and used by demagogues and political opportunists - those anti-establishment renegades Boris Jonson, Michael 'Lord Chancellor' Gove and Nigel 'personal fortune of 2 million' Farage. They were laughing at you, claiming to be against the 'elites' while lying through their teeth