Has anyone learnt anything?

[Namehanger]

I am a remainer and have spent about two hours a day reading threads and articles on Brexit. I started angry, got angrier but am now calming down.

I have disagreed with a huge amount of what posters who voted to leave the EU have said. So what I have learnt?

• I sort of knew but had underestimated how difficult life is in some parts of the UK
• that some posters had good reasons for leaving the EU.
• that immigration is patchy and is an issue in some areas
• buy to let landlords in the SE, buy cheap property in the North and turn them into HMO's filled with immigrants
• how totally morally bankrupt some politicians are, it is one thing fiddling your expenses but to create this shitstorm
• everyone has been let down, both people who voted in and out of the EU. We are a tolerant, outgoing nation.

I am no longer going to use the labels of remain and leave. They have now become full of bile and hatred.

Never discuss Politics or Religion

This is nonsense. Previous generations never discussed anything hence outrages like Jimmy Savile were allowed to happen.

Buttoning your lip and getting on with it 'for the good of the country' is absolutely the last thing we need to do.

I'm glad we live in more enlightened times than previous generations. I'm thankful for open and frank discussion, as opposed to standing by the garden fence hoiking my bosom and mouthing bits of conversation, like Cissy and Ada.

I will not be shutting up anytime soon.

Sorry for both the essay & if I have repeated things but feel quite strongly about this.

I have learnt:-

-There is an immense growing gap between social divides and that 'Westminster' exists in a bubble.

-That this was partly a sub-conscious reaction against the speed of globalisation.

-The level of damage that political infighting could do to the UK, and that many Politicians are lying shits not in it for the any other reason that their own gain.

-My belief that we are indirectly controlled by Media (ie. Murdoch et al.) is correct, and they can essentially print anything to their own advantage without penalty. They are meant to be the ones holding our leaders to account not acting as King makers.

-There really was no plan for the UK after Brexit- both sides have in reality lost, and we are a nation divided.

-My shame at the result being praised by far right organisations and seen as endorsement for the few to act upon racist & xenophobic views.

-The level of misunderstanding as to what the EU is and does, which demonstrates how badly the 'Remain' failed in their campaign.

-How many people do not understand basic world economics- for example siting the FTSE100 'recovery' but without understanding what this is or how it works and that there is an artificial inflation due to the value of the Pound.

-Politics, Economics (domestic and national) & Critical thinking needs to be taught in schools.

Politics, Economics (domestic and national) & Critical thinking needs to be taught in schools.

YYY.

It is already taught to a degree, but needs to be compulsory & robust.

Education can only do so much, imo. Oh, where is that quote. /paste

"Power is not a mistake in which the powerful can be educated, it’s not a misunderstanding, and it’s not a disagreement. Justice is not won by moral argument, or exertion, or individual transformation, and it’s not won by spiritual epiphany - It’s won by taking power away from the powerful and dismantling the institutions." ~Lierre Keith

Spot on OP

I've learnt that people cannot have an opinion without being labelled a fascist, fascist or stupid.

I've learnt that our country is weak when it comes to falling for fear mongering.

I've found that our 'experts' talk a load of sh*t.

I've found that people cannot have a debate without name calling.

I found a lot of people spewing opinions rather than facts but still being convinced they were correct.

I found that democracy stands for nothing is the vote goes the 'wrong way'.

I've found it irritating being told my vote was 'a mistake' I'm actually 100% confident in my vote.

I understand things will get worse but then they will get better.

I've noticed people protesting about things that they have done no research on just to 'get involved'

I've found that people are very brainwashed about the positives that the EU brought us.

ive found that not wanting our country to be over populated means I am a racist. I'm not in the slightest, I don't want immigrants banned I just believe we should have a system like Australia's.

I believe some people should throw away their rose tinted spectacles and realise that we are a great country on our own and not just with many others. I wish people would see how great countries are doing that refused joining.

I wish that the middle and upper classes would see why the lower classes would vote out and why they are far from retarded but actually more educated in real life than all of us.

I wish people would stop bleating on about 'fearing for the future ' without hard facts!

I wish our nation would now pull together and make this work, the leavers believe we could now let's get some confidence in our country from the remainers and see that not a lot will actually change that will effect everyday life. Nothing we cannot get round now. People will still work in our country and us in theirs, they will haunt need a visa. Products will get expensive but the money will be going back into our own country. We will be able to decide on our own laws. Including changing the government body.

I wish all in all that everyone would just pull up their socks, get off their high horses and put there energy into improving things rather than letting us be dragged behind.

*racist

I've learnt that Australians are perplexed by Britain's obsession with the Australian points based system because they think it's a shit system which doesn't work as immigration has gone through the roof since they brought it in.

I wish that the middle and upper classes would see why the lower classes would vote out and why they are far from retarded but actually more educated in real life than all of us.

I'm working class. You, and millionaires Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson, and all the wealthy over 60s certainly don't speak for me.

I've learnt that people think saying, I understand things will get worse but then they will get better actually amounts to proper political debate! I've learnt that they can't answer why they think that but they keep saying it anyway.

I've learnt that the fact there is no plan, no brexit leadership, and that the country has bought into two massive lies is actually all the fault of remainers somehow.

I've learned that some people cannot stand to apply critical thought to themselves & acknowledge points where they may have been originally unenlightened.

"I've learned that some people cannot stand to apply critical thought to themselves & acknowledge points where they may have been originally unenlightened."

Yep. If I hadn't known that already, I would have learned that.

"I wish that the middle and upper classes would see why the lower classes would vote out and why they are far from retarded but actually more educated in real life than all of us."

Why thanks guvnor, hang on and I'll go find a cap so I can raise it to you...

I've learned that just because you don't like someone, it doesn't mean they are wrong. Sounds obvious, but this has been quite a revelation to me.

I'm an EU immigrant and socialist. I voted leave after a LOT of reading and thinking, though I see both sides. I hate the Tories, but we can get rid of them. I decided that it was the only chance for change re the EU and put the campaign to the side (those politicians will soon be gone)... I see the EU as driving the neoliberal austerity adgenda and funding banks (broadly and simplistically!). Obvs I'm not bothered by immigration! It might have implications for me and short term for the nation but I honestly believe long term it's more likely to be for the good of society and my children.

I've learnt that this has brought out the worst in both sides. Many of the remain voters I know or hear of had good intentions but are now posting "solidarity with immigrants" type stuff all over the internet but don't seem to be relentinting in their hatred of leave voters for voting "wrong" :-(

While leave voters I know are actually mostly left wing (only one Tory) and many are immigrants / not white but most are working class, none are racist... remainders seem to be in the middle class graduate bracket more... And richer so I guess more to lose from economic instability.

It's a generalisation, but I wish we'd stop hating each other and start directing that energy at politicians instead.

Yy to the "voting wrong"! Like, there was only one right answer.

I have learned that I am the Schrödinger's cat equivalent of middle class, simultaneously being accused of being it and not in it depending on who is defining it. And that I must stick by that label despite any instance of reality apparently.

And largely that people don't understand statistics enough to realise causation and correlation are two different things. Actually I think I already knew that one.

Strictly You lost me at 'statistics'

I mean I hate the policies of the Tory government and the implications that's had on people.. Not Tory voters who I presume believe they are voting for the best... Just realising using "hate" sounded pretty hypocritical :-D

I've learned:

• how much people apparently despise experts and believe they're just as qualified to judge a situation as someone who has made it their life's work to investigate, research and report on matters of huge importance.
• that we seem to have crossed a line in this country where it's perfectly acceptable for politicians to not just 'spin' but to knowingly tell blatant lies and to continue to spout them even when challenged.
• just how biased the media is (I knew this already, but the extent of the bias has been an eye-opener).
• that there are a lot of xenophobes and racists who now seem to think they have carte blanche to spout their hateful views.
• that vast numbers of people don't understand politics. (I've seen several people today suggesting that Farage resigned 'so he could put himself forward for the Tory leadership...')

I have learned that I am the Schrödinger's cat equivalent of middle class, simultaneously being accused of being it and not in it depending on who is defining it.
Me too, StrictlyMumDancing!

cait seems to happen a lot, I was always a bit weird in liking that subject.

twofingers I want to dramatically cry 'I don't know who I am anymore'. Then I giggle and get over it!

I'm a proper mish/mash and have not one clue who I actually am anymore tbh, too.

I am working class background.

Was a blue collar worker, no higher education past A levels.
But, was firmly middle income - nice car, but renting, lots of disposable income.

Now I'm a single mum, on sickness benefits, but a home-owner.

Soon to be a student and will (fingers crossed!) be in the graduate population in a few years.

I have no identity!! (Sob!)

That the two most stupid people in the country have had the best education money can buy.

That next time I should maybe stop and think before leaping to the defence of my generation.

But that young people don't have too much to be proud of either.

Lovelyjubbly, I've spent a lot of time since the referendum in these threads and in the main, my anger has cooled a little and I have become calmer. However, there is nothing at all that makes me incandescent with rage than this rhetoric abounding that we should 'pull together and move forward'. Let me make myself crystal clear, there are no circumstances under which I will ever, ever be 'pulling together' with the Leavers. I cannot unite and join in with making plans for Brexit because I think leaving the EU will have profoundly negative consequences for the future. I cannot and will not get on board with that.

It also sounds, when Leavers say 'pull together and move forward to making a better future' as though you are saying 'please make the plan for us because, as we now all know, we never actually had one'. So no, I won't clean up your mess.

I think the people who come out with this 'pull together' stuff really do not understand the consequences of this vote. This is not something that I will ever forgive. I don't think you realise the loss, the grief and the anger which you have stirred up. It is not something which we will just forget about in a week and join hands with you all to walk out of the EU because we think that doing so will lead us all to disaster. The bitterness of this debate will reverberate and rankle for years, maybe decades. The fallout will be extremely far reaching and serious. Saying 'we should all pull together' suggests that you don't realise just how huge and important this really is.

I won't pull together because I will do everything I can to make my voice heard against this. I won't work with you to make it happen, I will fight it up to and beyond Article 50. Please understand that.