Has anyone learnt anything?

[Namehanger]

I am a remainer and have spent about two hours a day reading threads and articles on Brexit. I started angry, got angrier but am now calming down.

I have disagreed with a huge amount of what posters who voted to leave the EU have said. So what I have learnt?

• I sort of knew but had underestimated how difficult life is in some parts of the UK
• that some posters had good reasons for leaving the EU.
• that immigration is patchy and is an issue in some areas
• buy to let landlords in the SE, buy cheap property in the North and turn them into HMO's filled with immigrants
• how totally morally bankrupt some politicians are, it is one thing fiddling your expenses but to create this shitstorm
• everyone has been let down, both people who voted in and out of the EU. We are a tolerant, outgoing nation.

I am no longer going to use the labels of remain and leave. They have now become full of bile and hatred.

Ive learnt how much of a game politics is. I knew already, but kind of thought our country was more civilised.(ashamed of being so naive)

Ive learnt I do not trust the bbc in any way (bias towards remainers is unreal) never mind the tv licence and years of "jimmy savile" behaviour.

When I think of propaganda I imagine how germany betrayed the jews. My eyes have been opened recently. Im even pissed off with the guardian! Tv shows like "the wright stuff" have disgusted me.

I have learnt to trust my gut and research for myself.

I have learnt how far removed the politicians are from everyday working people

HelpfulChap Correlation between voting choice and income was loose see here. I've seen another chart (which I can't now find, sadly) which is clearer than the one I've linked to. The other chart demonstrates more clearly that the correlation is, indeed, loose. The modal area for a 'Leave' vote was far more lower-middle income areas. Outliers skew the overall statistics to show a loose correlation between lower income areas and a Leave vote.

I don't know where the narrative about C/D Labour voters has come from. Perhaps the early polls and what people reported to pollsters? Perhaps because people have over-focused on the fact 1/3 of Labour voters appear not to have followed the party position on the referendum? Perhaps because people were just so surprised about Burnley? Perhaps it's a hangover of the terrible (and damaging) narrative that painted this as a revolt against 'the elites'?

Yes, there is a slight correlation but common sense can tell you that, with 52% of the vote, it's a fair old cross-section of people who voted 'Leave', and likewise 'Remain'.

seagreengirl: snap!

thecat I don't know where the narrative about C/D Labour voters has come from
Yes. The low income, underprivileged counties of Sussex and Hertfordshire both voted leave, but I guess a Home Counties leave vote doesn't suit the prevailing rhetoric about C/D voters and disenfranchised northerners vs 'elitist' remainers. Better not mention the stockbroker belt Brexiters (Sevenoaks, Beaconsfield etc...)

I've learnt that -

The media should be gagged

It's safe to come back on MN again

Puffy

I have learnt that people dont get the difference between democracy and authoritarianism, and they would quickly wish to subdue people right to freedom of protest.

That on the one hand they expect total silence post vote but would not expect after a general election for opposition to sit quietly murmuring for 5 years (or perhaps they do?!).

I have learnt that 'expert' is now a negative thing.

Yes- "expert" has been added to the list of negatives, along with liberal and do gooder. Deeply depressing.

And the next person who says anything about "going with your gut/ heart" in my presence will die.

I think the referendum was conducted the wrong way round. We should have been offered options and plans and voted on those. So I've learnt a lot about forward planning.

"or perhaps they do?"

Yes I think they do.

There were the same calls of "sore losers" and "just get over it" after the General Election, on mumsnet at least, as if the election was a 100m race and that once over that was that.

As if we should all just lie down and let the Tories repeatedly shaft us, push people - especially vulnerable groups like the disabled - into poverty and early graves and just say "oh well, we'd better wait for the next general election to say anything, they won so we must just let them do whatever they want".

Like you say, no real understanding of democracy - or of the horrific consequences of giving power to the neo-cons.

blink I totally agree, I remember seeing similar myself in other areas. There's always hope though that they government will sod up enough to not last a full term, this is somewhat different though sadly.

What that the fuck have they done to this country. Seriously in a couple of months they completely fucked it. It was nowhere near perfect but now they have broken it. And for what?

Leaver or remainer there are no winners.

Though unless of course you are one of the head honchos then you will make literally millions on the dinner talk circuit.

I'm learning that a lot of people don't understand that democracy is a premise based on many ways and systems, and isn't as simple as you bought it, you got it. To the point that pretty much everyone is simultaneously being democratic and undemocratic at the same time.

Having been totally opposed to Cameron, Osborne, Gove and Hunt, I have learnt that there are lots of other Tory MPs that I really like and respect. I'm actually looking forward to seeing who is in the new Cabinet.

28 years ago, I was doing Politics A Level and I wrote an essay arguing passionately for more referendums. I did mention the potential for increasing divisions but added something like 'meh, but that shouldn't put us off'.

I have changed my mind!

Your post just made me lol Helmet!
(genuine)

Someone upthread has already said the same but I have also learned that some people that I know are racist and intolerant.

Hahaha helmet
When I was doing my economics a level I wrote in defence of staying out of the euro. This was around the time the euro was being set up but still when France had francs etc. I got a good mark but my class and teacher all told me how short sighted I was being. Anyway years later Greece happened, which was a scenario I had said could occur. Just as I was about to concede defeat in being wrong too!

Yes. The low income, underprivileged counties of Sussex and Hertfordshire both voted leave, but I guess a Home Counties leave vote doesn't suit the prevailing rhetoric about C/D voters and disenfranchised northerners vs 'elitist' remainers. Better not mention the stockbroker belt Brexiters (Sevenoaks, Beaconsfield etc...)

I don't think anyone is surprised that the heartlands of Little England voted out. Who do you think Boris was trying to impress with his leadership of the Leave campaign?

I'm NOT surprised, Bumble! Just getting tired of all the rhetoric about poor, disenfranchised ex-Labour voters etc and the 'spin' that remainers are 'elites'.
It's divisive and unhelpful.

I have learnt:

• that I could be a normal inconspicuous person one day but then become an immigrant who is not welcome the nest and that within less than a week I am reduced to being a pawn.

• how scarily quickly public opinion could turn and how a view which is unacceptable one week is perfectly fine the next.

• that now matter how much you contribute to the success of a country, you always are an outsider, barely tolerated and that your life, feelings, situation weigh a lot less that the opinion of a British person. That really you are not a person at all.

• that politicians are even more self serving than I thought

• how little people understand economics, geopolitics etc..

• that people's memory is very short and that history can very easily repeat itself

• just how selfish some people are

• but that others will truly surprise you when you didn't expect anything

lifeistooshort