Has anyone learnt anything?

[Namehanger]

I am a remainer and have spent about two hours a day reading threads and articles on Brexit. I started angry, got angrier but am now calming down.

I have disagreed with a huge amount of what posters who voted to leave the EU have said. So what I have learnt?

• I sort of knew but had underestimated how difficult life is in some parts of the UK
• that some posters had good reasons for leaving the EU.
• that immigration is patchy and is an issue in some areas
• buy to let landlords in the SE, buy cheap property in the North and turn them into HMO's filled with immigrants
• how totally morally bankrupt some politicians are, it is one thing fiddling your expenses but to create this shitstorm
• everyone has been let down, both people who voted in and out of the EU. We are a tolerant, outgoing nation.

I am no longer going to use the labels of remain and leave. They have now become full of bile and hatred.

That you should not take anything for granted.
That a country, that when asked a perfectly sensible question about what to name a boat, came up with "Boaty McBoatface" is highly likely not to come up with the answer you expect on anything. And that that is not necessarily a bad thing.

I have learnt that we need to galvanise/rally before an important event not after - if the remains had protested before 23rd June to voice their strong desire to stay in the EU or the leavers had marched for EU reform just after Juncker blatantly disregarded us as a country then it might have engaged a lot of people much earlier, particularly the younger generation, and things might be different now. Instead we just waited for 23rd June to come around, put our cross in the box and sat back to see what would happen. Now we have the result we have which can't be undone and we need to try to move forward.

I've learnt that people who say "well it can't get much worse, can it" have no understanding of life anywhere other than the UK. They will probably now have to learn the hard way.

I've learnt just how important grass roots politics is and how much it needs to start coming from the ground up a lot more.

There are lessons to be learnt here for everyone.

Whilst a lot of attention is being focused on Labour's problem with this, the Conservatives actually have their own problem with this too. I know our local party have very little new blood coming through and their core membership is rapidly aging. This has its own potential to leave an opening gap in politics that is ripe for exploiting. The Conservative Party will either become much more centralised with power being controlled by fewer and fewer people or it will be challenged by another new right wing party. And the rumblings are there. The alternative is something we don't know, and is potentially fair more worrying. Better the devil and all that.

Whilst you might not like them, it is essential that people start joining them as much as Labour and the Lib Dems.

Not only this, but supporting a party has to be more than paying your £3, £10, £15 or whatever it is. Its has to be about 'getting involved'. It can be social media - and this is increasingly important. But its also leafleting, going to meetings and putting in time in the community.

Its difficult to listen if you JUST use social media, and never step outside your immediate circle. Whilst we criticise MPs for doing this, I think we are all, just as guilty really.

this started off a very optimistic thread but looking at the later post it has degenerated as usual into vitriol and loathing

Agree mollie123.

Although it has rallied again a little bit now.

Great post

I was aware that the divide was getting bigger but not to the extent it is. Living in London even with deprived areas you do live in a bubbles to some extent

I wasn't so aware of the dislike and sneering from so many lefties and they think of themselves as being emphatic

Jeez people just look for offence. Of course I wasn't saying that all over 35s are stupid. I'm over 35!

What I was saying was that I feel that education standards above this age seem quite low on average and I don't mean core subjects I mean economics, politics, critical thinking etc. I have seen many many people IRL just parrot what they see in a newspaper or on the news. Also a few of my friends have zero understanding of politics or economics other than they feel they should vote Labour/Tory because their family do or that they are rubbing their hands in glee that house prices will fall not realising that the economy is interconnected and that house price crashes mean the whole economy is unstable which is not good for anyone.

I don't know how education has changed but I feel the younger generation seem in a way more savvy maybe social media helps? Or the fact most of them don't read papers/watch the news?

I've learned that people have a very low threshold for what "vitriol" is.

For many it appears to mean "not agreeing with me"

"I have also learned that people say things like "Also that some people get absolutely incandescent with rage at the thought of the less well off/ poorly educated/ Northern/ older/ whatever's vote being worth just as much as theirs" because it's a really effective way of shutting down discussion."

Well that's what kind of caused me to say that clearly lots of people assume everyone here is middle aged and middle class...there was that sort of argument going on in a thread, both sides talking about certain sections of society as 'other' and then somebody said something along the lines of - it must be a shock to realise that the thickos off of a council estate have an equal vote... As if no-one on the thread could possibly be someone living on a council estate or have a lower income

Most people get the idea that this thread is about looking at the other side of the argument and discovering things they didn't know such as pro EU supporters discovering the huge inequality in this country or posters who voted to leave the EU discovering that some people worked and studied abroad or that their son's youth club was paid by EU grants.

I spent a week in Belgrade in Serbia a couple of years ago with young people whose lives had been directly affected by conflict. The young man who spent two months with his family hiding in a basement in Kosovo. They couldn't flee because his elderly grandad was seriously ill so they hid until they were rescued by NATO. Or the young lady whose family had to flee Bosnia after her father was killed for .... being Bosnian. This was the late 1990's in Europe. Young people still haunted by their past but full of positivity to make a difference for the future.

The summer school was about the peace process after conflict. This is a over reaction and no one has come to blows but as this week has continued I have started to see similarities between the two.

I have learnt how and why democracy can fail. At the same time, I have learnt that I do believe in democracy and I feel that we have to accept the decision that has been made, even if it is the wrong one.

I have learnt that a referendum with a simple binary question probably isn't the best way of making a decision about an incredibly complex issue.

I have learnt that there is much more racism and xenophobia just below the surface in our society than I had ever imagined. For the first time, I have really feared for my dd's future in this country.

I have learnt that people who feel utterly disempowered and devoid of hope can sometimes make decisions that will ultimately make their lot in life worse, not better. I have understood that sometimes, any change might seem better than no change, regardless of what that change might be.

I have learnt that intelligent, educated people sometimes make choices on a whim, which they then regret later.

I have had my suspicions confirmed that most of our politicians are more focused on their own career gains, rather than what is best for the country. I have also learnt that politicians can lie quite openly and not be held to account.

I have learnt that the Union of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland is more fragile than I had realised, especially the peace process in Northern Ireland.

I have learnt how important being European is as a part of my identity. I have realised how much I valued our cooperation with other countries and how much I valued our ability to move freely within the EU. I feel sad for my dd that she will have lost that freedom.

I have learnt that I do not see eye to eye with some of my closest friends on some very important issues. I will not let this destroy my friendships, but I am left with a sadness and emptiness that probably won't go away for a while.

And finally, I've learnt that, even when shit happens, you just have to pick yourself up and make the best of a bad situation. To accept the stuff that I cannot change, and to focus on what I can control for myself and for my family.

I have also learnt that unfollowing/deleting everyone who annoys me on FB etc means I am narrowing my world view considerably. I read recently that we tend to create a social media bubble populated only by people we believe think like us. This can lead to a belief that everybody thinks like us as we also tend to spend most of our time talking/socialising and often working with those same people. As an experiment I went back and un unfollowed iykwim and its been an eye opener. I have deleted several because I really don't need racist, offensive or just downright rude people but I have also called people out/asked why on posts leading to some very interesting discussions. This whole process has left me more aware of racism and my tendency to avoid conflict rather than defend myself.

I'd say the best/most enlightening links I've read over the past week are:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_of_silence (and how that can bring surprises when combined with a secret ballot)

Prof Mark Blyth (10min) Or maybe this one: (4min) And another, not strongly related but one I saw linked off Twitter but I can't find it where you can leave welcome messages to refugees, which I think is a good thing to do and had never heard of prior.

Oh and I also was intrigued by the Brexit as Ultimatum Game analysis.

I think that young people have never been taught about politics at school. Not now, not when I was at school and not when my parents were at school.

This has meant that people of all ages were making a decision in a vacuum and relying on people in authority of some kind who are supposedly experts to help them decide.

Those experts have since revealed themselves to be playing games.

Trying to be positive, it is definitely a debate which has energised the whole country, especially since the result and wonder if this will ultimately be a good thing. Also wonder if pp will want to become more involved and try to change things for themselves more?

Lightning, I am amazed by the bubble I live in. Not one person on my social media has expressed support for Leave, all of my colleagues votes Remain, all of my friends voted Remain, all of my family including extended family voted Remain, all of my in laws voted Remain. I honestly haven't met a Leave voter - and although I've been strident and vocal on here, I'm very mild mannered and polite in real life so I don't think it's that anyone is too scared to tell me they are pro-Leave. My mum, despite being in the over-60 category, also does not know or work with a single Leave voter - she said she has one friend who was undecided and she thinks that she may have voted Leave. I live in a Northern town which voted Leave so there must be plenty of Leavers around me but I don't seem to know any of them which makes me wonder how I've managed to create such an echo chamber!

www.refugee-action.org.uk/support_us/campaign/welcome_a_refugee

Good post OP. I never believed this was a simple 'stay or go' question - too many highly complex issues to be understood before being able to have a proper, balanced view of the pros and cons of both....it became an emotional vote, not a considered vote...

Interesting thread.

I learned how much I wanted to stay in the moment I heard the result. I voted remain but considered myself a reluctant remainer. The EU has many faults but like the Winston Churchill democracy quote, I considered it the least worst option. I was fairly well informed about the EU before (my username came about because I spent a few months working within one of the institutions) but I've learned how broad the reach of the EU is.

I've learned that referenda are really not the way to determine nuanced questions with many possible outcomes. A simplistic binary choice just doesn't work for a matter of this sort of complexity.

It has reinforced my view about the benefits of free movement of labour.

It has made me realise how woeful the English education system is in certain respects. I studied part of my degree at a French university. Economics and politics were compulsory. I think this is a good thing. Many people were just not equipped to analyse the complexities.

I've learned there are more racists in the UK than I naively realised. I'm horrified by the extremist reactions being reported and horrified to see the uk being congratulated by the likes of Le Pen.

It's been enlightening.

I learnt just how much the media twists and turns events to portray them in a certain way. I didn't realise that the media wanted a Brexit result so the super rich newspaper owners could make even more money - I thought they were just doing it to flog papers. I can't quite believe even now how cynical they have been.

I learnt how some people are so disenfranchised that they'll vote knowing that their own lives are likely to be made worse, but feel this is their only way to show their unhappiness.

I learnt that some people didn't grasp that everyone only gets a single vote, so however intelligent or qualified they were, that didn't mean that their vote counted more than anyone else.

I have become politically engaged. If I'm going to pay more tax I'd much rather than money went to the poorest in our society rather than being frittered away to patch up this decision. If only I'd thought of this years ago and voted accordingly rather than in self-interest, then maybe we'd not be in that position.

It's been a very long 9 days.

I have become politically engaged. If I'm going to pay more tax I'd much rather than money went to the poorest in our society rather than being frittered away to patch up this decision. If only I'd thought of this years ago and voted accordingly rather than in self-interest, then maybe we'd not be in that position.

Interesting. I feel like I've shifted more in the other direction. I've always voted according to what I thought was best for the poorest in our society, even when I've believed that this is in direct conflict with my own self-interest. I'm now feeling less inclined to worry about this, because I feel that people have chosen not to help themselves, so why on earth should I bother.

I know it's much more complex than that really. Presumably people were frustrated with the status quo and thought that things would be better for them if they voted out. However, I feel that they were very misguided. I do think that the poorest in our society will suffer the most in a post-Brexit recession, but they were warned and it's hard not to feel that many of them will have brought it on themselves. Honestly, I think I would resent paying more tax to dig us out of a hole that I didn't vote for, having never minded paying tax in the past.

But then, I have to remind myself of the poor and disabled members of society who didn't vote for the mess that we now find ourselves in. Why should they have to pay the price? And perhaps many of those who did vote leave didn't really know what they were choosing. Perhaps I should save my anger for those who were rich enough to play political games with the state of our nation, knowing that they would be able to ride out any recessions regardless.

I have a lot of thinking to do.

I've learned about the darkness in human nature. I've learned that assuming good intentions in people unless proved otherwise is not common to all, and that in fact many are eager to assign the most malign intentions to others as a default. Knowing that people around me might be operating using the latter, rather than former, paradigm has made me immeasurably sad. And, like a virus, it has spread to me - to protect myself and my loved ones, it seems I too must change my way of thinking .

And knowing that people are assuming the worst of each other, expecting base treachery and vile intentions from others, gives me little hope that this country will ever heal the rift, genuinely work together and recover from this trauma.

I have learned that people conflate all sorts of things within their value system as being logically connected and dependent on each other, when that's not necessarily the case. Many of us have similar core values and goals, just different ideas about the best way to get there.

I have learned that there is a large body of left liberal thinking people ("progressive", "guardianista", whatever) who are desperate for someone to represent them and articulate their view, and they feel that it isn't happening in mainstream politics. I have friends who left the lib dems to join labour in 2010, now rejoining the lib dems, or joining the Green party. They had Cameron and Osborne swanning around as the poster boys for their belief that remaining in the EU was a good idea, although in almost every other part of their belief system, they'd see Cameron and Osborne as unprincipled horrors (with some justification, IMO :) ). And our FPTP politics really does this sector of society no favours at all, even if it is quite noisy on social media. I don't know what the answer is, but I see it, and I hear the fear of not being properly represented and heard, and I don't think that's right and fair for this sector of society (NB I'm not a progressive left liberal myself).

I see and hear the fury and anger and fear and bewilderment of a large proportion of society discovering that their values are not shared by others, and it being so self-evidently crazy that others don't share those values. And struggling to reconcile what it must mean: are other people stupid? brainwashed? ill-informed? evil? or have I missed something?

I have learnt a lot about politics and the EU that I didn't know before. I voted Remain, but for reasons that were as ill-defined and poorly thought through as many Leave voters.

I'm more engaged in politics now than I've ever been before (I'm in my 40s).

I have learned that referendums have no part in a democracy and we should never have another one.