Has anyone learnt anything?

[Namehanger]

I am a remainer and have spent about two hours a day reading threads and articles on Brexit. I started angry, got angrier but am now calming down.

I have disagreed with a huge amount of what posters who voted to leave the EU have said. So what I have learnt?

• I sort of knew but had underestimated how difficult life is in some parts of the UK
• that some posters had good reasons for leaving the EU.
• that immigration is patchy and is an issue in some areas
• buy to let landlords in the SE, buy cheap property in the North and turn them into HMO's filled with immigrants
• how totally morally bankrupt some politicians are, it is one thing fiddling your expenses but to create this shitstorm
• everyone has been let down, both people who voted in and out of the EU. We are a tolerant, outgoing nation.

I am no longer going to use the labels of remain and leave. They have now become full of bile and hatred.

Great thread I have learnt that to stand up and be counted for what you believe in can unleash a horrific shit storm but to just keep quietly and politely explaining why whilst understanding that fear and pain are driving the angry reactions. I have been so tempted in my personal and professional life to just keep my head down about voting Leave but that would be cowardly. I have also learnt to be even more disappointed in our politicians than I thought possible.

I learned that critical thinking is in short supply and that if something is said by a man in a suit on telly or written in a paper that masses of people will believe it unquestionably.

I've learned that education standards on the whole are quite low amongst the 35+ age groups especially in the areas of politics and economics.

Although many younger people let themselves down by not voting, they seem to be less binary (leftwing/right wing) in their thinking.

Our media is extremely corrupt e.g. they promoted Farage endlessly until they got their result and have now abandoned him as he's no longer useful.

Many of our politicians are incompetent and there's much corruption at the top (how many well functioning countries have all of their leaders attending the same school for example?).

Most scarily I've learned that the line between civilisation and savagery is very thin. Look at how quickly far right racists started attacking minorities? I can see now how some of the people of the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and Nazi Germany turned on their neighbours and killed/colluded in killing them. We need to be in our guard against enemies within.

I have learned that even though this is a huge issue, some people keep talking about 'sore losers, tantrums, spitting out dummies and toys out of prams', as though the future of the country is a trifling little thing that we shouldn't make a fuss about.

I've learned that some people didn't know which way they intended to vote until they got to the polling booth
because they had done no research.

I've learned that both sides of any political argument lie their arses off in order to win, with no plan for what happens afterwards. Oh, actually I knew that one already.

I've learnt this is going to be a very long and rocky road and my Dds fear for their future.

It's also sad just how much of this country is run by the media.

Our politicians of all parties except the SNP and LD are truly in it for themselves.

We are lucky as at least we have the back stop of Irish citizenship.

I also learnt that turkies like to vote for Christmas.

That the DM has far too much political influence in our country.

That people can go on about Sovereignty (sovereignty of the people and their representatives), but in fact Sarah Vine's 'leaked' email referring to Murdoch/Dacre backing showed how the media have an enormous and self interested power.

Ironically as most of the newspaper owners are non doms and most definitely don't give a toss about the 'people'. Yet they mould and shape public opinion and prejudice so easily.

That some people have a staggeringly tenuous grip on concepts such as 'fascism' and 'democracy' but cling firmly to the 'know you are, said you are but what am I?' school of debate. They are delighted with themselves when they can counter the factual observation that they are on the same side as the racist, intolerant bigots by going 'yeah...yeah...but YOU'RE the bigot', thus demonstrating their total lack of comprehension but imagining that this is a really clever way to silence those who disagree with them.

Lots of people think democracy is basically the same as a football match and therefore you can't contest the 'result'. It's very depressing.

this started off a very optimistic thread but looking at the later post it has degenerated as usual into vitriol and loathing

Our politicians of all parties except the SNP and LD are truly in it for themselves.
We are lucky as at least we have the back stop of Irish citizenship.
I also learnt that turkies like to vote for Christmas. the plural is turkeys!

I've learned that education standards on the whole are quite low amongst the 35+ age groups especially in the areas of politics and economics. - so we are all thick if not under 35 then.

I've learned that while everyone who voted leave that I met, saw on tv, and on Facebook were motivated by immigration, none of the leavers on mumsnet were apparently and indeed that's an appalling, disgusting thing to say.

Instead, mumsnet leavers were mostly motivated by heart or freedom and feel that remainers need to stop their whining, make a plan, fight racism and fix the economy.

I rest my case - sarcasm is the lowest form of communication

I've learnt that there is a massive disconnect between what happens on social media and in real life.

If I never came on here or Twitter I think I could safely say I would be almost unaware of the huge conflict and aggression shown to the 'other side' voters.

In my real life people are just getting along as usual, I had a relaxed conversation with my pharmacist who voted opposite to me and she didn't even try to poison me with the wrong meds

I've learnt that facist bigots are a very small minority of people and that they voted on both sides of this argument depending where their intolerance lay.

I've learnt that some people really didn't understand how life is for some and can now understand how easy it would be to overlook. I thought that people must have known but just didn't care.

I've felt hurt that racism I feel I've suffered my whole life (sometimes from EU migrants) didn't seem to count when it was just happening to black people. I was angry and thought it was purely people using it now for a political agenda.

Then after reading threads on here I realise people do care but same as above probably didn't realise the extent of what was happening because they weren't looking for it.

And judging by the way this thread is turning I've learnt that it takes some people a lot longer to understand there is no 'us' and 'them' really.

Just a lot of scared people trying to do what they see as best.

I've learned that so many people are unbelievably negative and would rather go backwards than even try to move forwards.

I've leaned that when it comes to constitutional change, safeguards should be in place to ensure that a significant majority is required for such a change to be effected.

The only people who benefit from division are those idiots who got us into this mess.

We now know how much division and inequality there is in the country. We are all to quick to take offence.

If you post what you have learnt as opposed to reinforcing one's own beliefs/prejudices, then it is a start of communication.

I have learnt that

• there is very little knowledge about how the EU acctually works
• even less knowledge about how Westminster works
• that there is even less knowledge about how much influence the media has in shaping how the population thinks
• how little knowledge there is about global geopolitics

I am heartened that the referendum has triggered a discussion about politics. If we keep it up we may overcome some of my points above. Although it is unlikely that we will all agree all of the time at least we can be assured it is a decision made from a position of knowledge.

That I'm not nearly cynical enough
That people's constitutional knowledge is jawdroppingly inadequate
That racism lurks just below the surface in a frightening number of people

Ive learnt that history should be better taught in schools- especially the lead up to the world wars and life before the welfare state.

Some people think they're at rock bottom now- but there's a potential for much worse.

I've learned that it takes a crisis to really pull people together, that the media bias and amplified self congratulatory south east echo chamber is even worse than I realised, that very few politicians act in the nation's best interests, that many don't believe in democracy...

Worst of all I've learned that there is something fundamentally childlike and immature about the UK as a whole. Whether it be Scottish politicians trying to rewrite history and the constitution, our Prime Minister having a destructive strop fit for a 5 year old, cabinet ministers acting like drunken jilted teenagers or young 'adults' bitterly complaining about the voting habits of their grand parents.

It could have been one of our finest hours, instead people are starting to laugh at us.

Great thread idea OP!

I've learnt buckets from the whole referendum, lots that other people have already said, but also...

I knew that local government management could be a bit rubbish and that private sector retail management could definitely be a bit rubbish, but I had this naive idea that governments and political parties knew what they were doing. Clearly not!

I learnt that it's very easy to blame the 'press' but actually, we are all perfectly capable of researching the EU, the consequences of the referendum etc if we really want to. There has been more information available than at any time in our history. However most people just presume the first few pages of the BBC website or the papers will do it all for us.

I have learnt a lot about the EU, good and bad. Still don't know who my MEP is though, but that's my fault, the info is out there.

Ive also learnt to question everything

Great thread idea OP!

I've learnt buckets from the whole referendum, lots that other people have already said, but also...

I knew that local government management could be a bit rubbish and that private sector retail management could definitely be a bit rubbish, but I had this naive idea that governments and political parties knew what they were doing. Clearly not!

I learnt that it's very easy to blame the 'press' but actually, we are all perfectly capable of researching the EU, the consequences of the referendum etc if we really want to. There has been more information available than at any time in our history. However most people just presume the first few pages of the BBC website or the papers will do it all for us.

I have learnt a lot about the EU, good and bad. Still don't know who my MEP is though, but that's my fault, the info is out there.

Ive also learnt to question everything

One of the things I have found truly frightening is feeling like I now know how civil war begins.

Sorry - bad wifi connection

Lastgirl, leaving the EU isn't 'moving forwards', it's a massive regressive step back. You seem to be pushing and pushing for the 48% to be quiet and drop it - that's not moving forwards either. I am not saying we should overturn the result and forget all about it - we can't ignore the cataclysmic upheaval underway. But I do think we should be moving forwards in the EU - staying in but addressing all the problems and issues raised by this. Saying we don't want this narrowly won, ill-conceived and misinformed result to stand is not a refusal to move forwards. We can address the lies, the misinformation, the catastrophic effects and the deep bitterness without leaving the EU - to invoke Article 50 is a massive step back for accountability, truth, fairness, the economy and quality of people's lives.

Captain well now you're talking!! I agree with you that if the EU could reform then it would be better to stay in. Although I cannot see this happening. Juncker and the rest seem so completely arrogant that I don't think anything would change. And if the UK crawled back to them my fear is that they would see that as a green light to proceed any way they want.