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Brexit

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

941 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 12:08

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

OP posts:
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20
noblegiraffe · 03/07/2016 23:37

Johnson really is a tosser isn't he?

His latest Telegraph column is condescending and rage-inducing.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/03/tory-candidates-need-a-plan-for-brexit---heres-mine-in-5-points

thecatfromjapan · 03/07/2016 23:45

Fantastic analysis of Switzerland, Red. Smile

noblegiraffe · 03/07/2016 23:51

Red I'm not sure in your analysis why you have Ireland and Italy as friends and not Switzerland?

Felascloak · 04/07/2016 00:17

Boris has an odd definition of "plan". Not surprised Gove was worried about detail.
And calling all Remain people radical lefties, what a cock.

Izlet · 04/07/2016 00:22

Interesting party, jostling to sit next to Murdoch. Nauseating.

MrsLupo · 04/07/2016 02:53

Evening all. Glad to see things have slowed down a tad here for the weekend, but it’s still taken me a couple of hours to catch up.

Thanks to howabout for the economics lesson and also for conjuring images of Mark Carney, Yanis and Canadian passports all in one lovely post!

No thanks to the many people who have mentioned Paul McKenna (though it had to happen). I knew him quite well socially some years ago and he is a complete worm. If this post gets deleted it will be because I can tell you with authority that he does use hypnotism in unethical ways.

I don't understand why remain and the current MPs are accepting the result of this referendum.

This question has been bothering me a lot too. I feel its because Westminster is in a proper cleft stick as far as respecting, and being seen to respect, democracy is concerned. No politician can be seen to ride roughshod over an election result, hence this mealy-mouthed the-people-have-spoken narrative, which is getting right up my nose atm. It reminds me of Clegg after the 2010 election, and we all know how well that worked out. It also makes me wonder why such care was taken to structure the referendum as advisory rather than binding, which is unlikely imo to have been a random decision.

There are many who still feel Art.50 will never be invoked, that the longer it is before it’s invoked the more likely it is that it will never be, and that some kind of deal/fudge will be done. My own view is that outrage over the lies and propaganda, and a decision to set the referendum result aside or re-run it, were more likely if they had happened promptly. That didn’t happen, thanks in part to the untimely and noisy implosion of the Labour party. The only MP who unequivocally denounced the Leave vote was David Lammy afaik and he was roundly criticised for being undemocratic as soon as it became apparent no one was going to be bold enough to join him. Kudos to him for speaking his mind, though, especially as it was what we were all thinking. It was noticeable that Tim Farron started off talking about fighting an election on a no Brexit ticket, and a day or three later had modified that to campaigning on a rejoin the EU ticket, partly as an early election seems increasingly unlikely. So I feel we are on a one-way moving walkway now, and can only hope it moves as slowly as real ones, giving me time to make some Brexit plans of my own.

That said, I’ve mellowed slightly in my view of the Leave vote. Having felt it was a completely bullshit outcome, driven by lies and ignorance, I can now appreciate that it was a very clear message about social and political exclusion, which it can only be a good thing to have brought squarely out into the open. We (by which I guess I mean I) live in quite a political bubble. I came from a working/lower middle class background and have always been left-wing (and a bit broke) but a combination of life events and opportunities meant I had a decent education to fall back on and have mainly lived in economically buoyant places. At an intellectual level, I’m aware of how Thatcher’s Tories decimated British industry and damaged the communities that depended on it, but most of the damage done left me totally untouched.

There was an item on C4 news on Friday about a photojournalist who’d been visiting communities in Leave areas since the referendum, photographing people and talking to them about why they voted to leave and it was too depressing for words. They filmed him in Burnley in a rundown neighbourhood with boarded up houses and shops. Yes, the ignorance was astounding (“We’re having to build 250,000 houses a day just to house all the immigrants, innit”

MrsLupo · 04/07/2016 02:54

Oh sorry. Here endeth the homily. Blush

SaltyMyDear · 04/07/2016 06:11

Back to the lawyer face book adds. There's no algorithm. The law firm has bought adds to be shown to people in a certain demographic / people who like certain Facebook pages.

So it's the law firm who has decided they'd like their adds shown to away citizens living in the UK or whatever. It's not creepy. It's marketing.

SaltyMyDear · 04/07/2016 06:12

Facebook knows everything about you. That is the freaky part.

howabout · 04/07/2016 06:48

I googled my old employer last week cos DD1 is looking at work experience options. Now every time I log into MN I get massive banner ads pleading with me to come back to the fold - even worse than the perennial stream of threads telling me all SAHM are lazy traitors to the cause. Sad

howabout · 04/07/2016 06:54

Just to add a bit of balance to my post about Switzerland this is Anton Muscatelli arguing very compellingly on the importance of EU citizens to the University sector. (He has just been appointed by NS to head up Scotlands task force in response to the Brexit vote - the official name escapes me).
www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14496645.Agenda__Glasgow_University_Principal_Professor_Anton_Muscatelli_on_the_dangers_of_Brexit/?ref=rss

noblegiraffe · 04/07/2016 07:04

I would be able to understand this poor disenfranchised vote more if the Tories hadn't been voted back in last election.

Helmetbymidnight · 04/07/2016 07:14

The vote was won by the 'poor and disenfranchised' narrative doesn't ring true to me.

we know about the massive elderly vote for brexit- most of these aren't poor or disenfranchised.

Two of the areas with the biggest brexit vote nationwide - castle point and Thurrock are not poor/disenfranchised areas either. They are very w/c areas yes but this wasn't a protest vote, (these are cons areas) this was a 'make Britain great again' vote.

merrymouse · 04/07/2016 07:24

Boris today:

"It was wrong of the Government to offer the public a binary choice on the EU without being willing – in the event that people voted Leave – to explain how this can be made to work in the interests of the UK and Europe."

?????? Shouldn't a plan have been thought about before the referendum, maybe by the people who thought it would be a good idea to Leave? Couldn't they have shared that plan with the electorate so that we knew what on earth we were voting on?

MissMargie · 04/07/2016 07:26

I hope Scotland has a referendum vote soon.
Though I suspect they are biding their time, the SNP that is, to make sure it's successful this time.
They misjudged it last time, I would vote to stay in UK still.
We have many farmers, fisherfolk who probably would want to leave the EU. Not sure what the oil industry would do, whether they need the EU subsidies or not.
Can't think of any other industries to consider except tourism which wouldn't be particularly affected by leaving EU or could improve with a low value to pound.

Chalalala · 04/07/2016 07:34

this wasn't a protest vote, (these are cons areas) this was a 'make Britain great again' vote.

It's not either/or though, it could be the conjunction of both.

InShockReally · 04/07/2016 07:37

Dear god.

Boris - words defy me. He was IN the government leading the leave campaign! He was the one who should have planned wasn't he?

His 5 point "plan" just reads like a deluded wishlist - number 5 in particular, what the hell?

1.	There is no risk whatever to the status of the EU nationals now resident and welcome in the UK, and indeed immigration will continue – but in a way that is controlled, thereby neutralising the extremists.
2.	It is overwhelmingly in the economic interests of the other EU countries to do a free-trade deal, with zero tariffs and quotas, while we extricate ourselves from the EU law-making system.
3.	We can do free-trade deals with economies round the world, many of which are already applying.
4.	We can supply leadership in Europe on security and other matters, but at an intergovernmental level.
5.	The future is very bright indeed. That’s what Geldof should be chanting.
Helmetbymidnight · 04/07/2016 07:38

it could be- I think the implication that communities voted leave because they are at rock bottom and it's the only way they could get their voices heard doesn't fit at all the castle point and Thurrock that I know well. It's an over simplification.

merrymouse · 04/07/2016 07:46

'Take back control' is vague enough to appeal to a wide variety of people, particularly if you aren't pinning yourself down to plans or policies.

merrymouse · 04/07/2016 07:48

but in a way that is controlled, thereby neutralising the extremists.

What does that mean? Which extremists are going to be neutralised? what does neutralised mean?

Helmetbymidnight · 04/07/2016 07:49

Neutered?

merrymouse · 04/07/2016 07:57

Boris:

"These fears are wildly overdone. The reality is that the stock market has not plunged, as some said it would – far from it. The FTSE is higher than when the vote took place"

According to Robert Peston and others, 75% of revenue from FTSE 100 comes from outside UK. Therefore a fall in the value of the £ inflates their value.

But really FTSE schmootzee. UK business needs to make actual plans now. How long is it going to take to find out what is going on?

merrymouse · 04/07/2016 07:58

Neutered?

Ahh, the Game of Thrones approach.

DoinItFine · 04/07/2016 08:08

There's no algorithm.

Grin

WTF?

Of course there's an algorithm. Well there are algorithms.

Everything Facebook shows you is decided algorithmically. That's how it works.

Companies buying advertising are paying for their content to be privileged by the algorithm and more likely to be seen by selected demographics. Also based on what they pay attention to and search for both on FB and elsewhere online.

I remember once being on a MN thread about something or other and people genuinely thinking it was a coincidence that facebook started serving them ads about what we were discussing.

Yes, it is marketing. And like so much marketing, it is creepy as fuck.

GingerIvy · 04/07/2016 08:11

I note that the Remain voters are going on about the economy and how the uncertainty is making it worse, but isn't it somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy? The moment the Leave result was known, and for the last 10 days (or however many it has been since the results were known), this country's media has been full of protests, marches, people demanding another referendum - all by Remain voters. Yes, I understand why they're doing it, but isn't that action fully contributing to the uncertainty?

How different would it have been had the people all decided "okay, that's the vote, let's carry on and make the best possible break that we can" ??

My concern is now this is going to colour every major political decision from now on. If no GE, then there will be tons of people protesting that, hoping to get LibDems and their "no brexit" in as PM. If there was a GE, then if Cons win, then people would be protesting again and demanding it be redone. If Parliament votes to trigger A50, there will be more protests and complaints. At what point is the country going to finally come together?

This chaos is what is fueling a lot of the problems at this point, IMO, and what will continue to contribute to the uncertainty. I would personally like to see A50 triggered as soon as possible, so we can then move on, rather than continue fighting within the country.

Don't get me wrong, I still fully lay this whole thing at Cameron's feet. This would have been a whole different ball game if he had either 1. Not called the referendum or "2. Stayed in office after the referendum and manned up and dealt with the results and carried on.