Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

[RedToothBrush]

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

Remain's problem was ALWAYS how to get excited about the EU when few people give it more than a 7/10 (to quote Corbyn on the Last Leg about it).

With regard to Corbyn in all this, I do think a lot will depend on how the media and the public react to Chilcot this week. Strangely this could turn on its head massively (I wonder how Dacre / Murdoch feel about this too - Corbyn is either really good from their point of view OR a real potential threat. I wouldn't put it past them saving him, thinking that he's no threat to them and will mean the LP stay stuck in all this mess).

The LP really need a raise star to save them and take on the people thing, the trouble is in them all resigning, they've all put themselves in a position where they are all the enemy to Corbyn supporters.

Now if Corbyn was to reach out and endorse a young new left winger in the party as the new leader, they might have a hope... who I don't know.

Crucially it must be SEEN by the Corbynites as Corbyn's successor not the PLP's. (Angela, you're out I'm afraid).

Now if Corbyn was to reach out and endorse a young new left winger in the party as the new leader, they might have a hope...

This is so clearly the way out - if it's truly not about personality but about ideas, then Corbyn should have no problem doing this.

Pragmatically, neither side can fully "win" here, so unless they want the party to break in two then it has to be a compromise. Now stop fighting and get on with talking. FFS.

These are the people that mainstream politicians need to represent properly, and I am afraid that the current parties just don't. Labour is falling apart and up its own arse, the Lib Dems are incorrigibly middle class, and no one will convince me that the Tories are capable of looking after anyone but the wealthiest and pretending to care about middle England. I am sceptical that a "progressive alliance" of the current parties would be able to put old baggage aside and come up with something new which genuinely supports the fears of the white working class, while not shitting on the middle class, or being so revolutionary that big business is scared off to our EU neighbours.

Basically I think we need the anti UKIP, run by the good guys, who are smart enough to figure out what the bad guys are doing. Anyone else agree?

There are loads of excellent points in there. I am painfully aware of the fact that I'm so horribly middle class, that I'm NEVER going to be able to convince anyone in this group of anything. To the point that its really not even worth me trying as it would make me look disingenuous. I think this is why I've sometimes found the whole Brexit thing very frustrating. There are these walls of communication that can only come from 'someone like me' and talks my language.

If I go back to my Orwellian nightmare this morning and drag up the following quote:
'the Party rejects and vilifies every principle for which the Socialist movement ever stood, and it chooses to do this in the name of Socialism' is a really powerful one in the context of the current climate.

We have the Conservatives saying 'We're all in this together'. We have a Labour party who seem out of touch with their core members. We have the Liberal Democrats who are as you say, primarily middle class and do kind of wishy washy socialism-lite at best.

And into this mix, charge UKIP who start saying THEY are the voice of socialism and they are the challenge to the ruling Party(s)...

The thing is, actually UKIP are as guilty of this as all three of the other parties. They are dressing up something else as socialism, when its categorically NOT socialism.

In terms of What Labour Do Next, I think if they play to the UKIP debate on immigration too much they are not doing socialism. They are doing nationalism dressed as socialism as well.

Labour need to do socialism that actually IS socialism.

Part of me does feel inclined to think that a split in the party might not be the worst thing in the world. BUT I think that split would have John McDonnell on the left of the party and after what he said yesterday about the direction of the party and pandering to this UKIP vote, rather than setting their own agenda and making it about what it should be - socialism, I think I'm a bit of a loss with it all tbh.

Again, can someone translate into non-overintellectualised bollocks for me please?

Arborea your point about the ex Labour core vote struck a chord. At my Labour Party meeting last night there were a few talking about what employment used to be like in our area and what it is now, ie entirely that shift from jobs with large secure firms to zero hours or self employment and working away a lot ( we are quite rural). They were talking about why was our core vote not turning out in a genuinely bewildered sort of way, whereas I don't think that core vote exists any more. Not through traditional loyalty anyway, voters have to be given a better reason for voting other than we aren't the Tories.

Red - yes, they've made it into an us vs them situation now, and there's really no way of a dignified backtrack after what they've done. A younger up-and-coming person that Corbyn could endorse would definitely solve the problem. Shame the MPs were too busy scheming to just sit down and think.

Regarding the 60+, I suppose there are some that just figure it was fine before the EU, and it'll be fine without it. But I would hesitate to say they don't understand the global economics involved, as it skirts pretty close to implying they're not clever enough to understand, which I think is a pretty big assumption. The 60+ are a varied group.

Rallies for Corbyn in Norwich and Exeter
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Grassroots movement Momentum has tweeted that rallies in support of Jeremy Corbyn have also been taking place in other parts of the UK.

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Here's Exeter making clear they support @jeremycorbyn #keepCorbyn
1:57 PM - 2 Jul 2016
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Hundreds out in Norwich too#keepCorbyn
1:59 PM - 2 Jul 2016

In other news.

Tory Smackdown latest:
Theresa May - 102 declarations
Michael Gove - 23 declarations
Stephen Crabb - 22 declarations
Andrea Leadsom - 20 declarations
Liam Fox - 9 declarations

I think if they play to the UKIP debate on immigration too much they are not doing socialism. They are doing nationalism dressed as socialism as well.

Labour need to do socialism that actually IS socialism.

The uncomfortable truth may be that Labour's core working-class voters don't actually want socialism anymore. Or they only want it in a protectionist, national context.

That's the wave Bernie Sanders rode in the US. Anti free-trade, anti-globalisation, protect American workers. Not dissimilar to Trump in some ways.

I think its more that they are not offered that choice though...

The USA is a difficult one to compare with as you have blue collar democrats and blue collar republicans who just won't cross that line, regardless of what's on offer tbh.

The difference being in large part GUNS.

I think we have to get away from terms like socialism. They carry too much baggage, and there isn't really a consensus about what they mean.

I didn't see Ruth Davidson's debate, but heard she was very powerful and talked about the white working class. Theresa May's full manifesto speech (not the snippets on the news) was also good in identifying the issues, the tricky part is actually how to make these things happen.

I identify as a middle class, educated centre/lefty myself, so I know that someone like me may well not play well with the dispossessed (though possibly I'm wrong as I come from a modest, though aspirational, not English background), and I am a bit astonished that I find myself approving of 2 Tories though still don't trust TM with my human rights , but my sense is that the centre has to offer the next step for British politics. I'm afraid that Trade Unions have had their day, and we need to look to the way the world is going, not where we have come from (eg accepting the role of social media, globalised business, the power of branding etc).

Politics needs to be achieving equity for more people, and until it can blend talking the talk, with walking the walk then I don't see society getting any more tolerant and peaceful.

I wonder what Danny Boyle is up to atm, he did such a great job with the Olympic opening ceremony in building an inspirational picture of Britain. It's propaganda like that which is imo needed to counter the current nastiness.

It's also difficult to compare to the US in the sense that socialism is not a well received term. Saying socialism in front of my American "if they want food or medical care, tell them to get out and get a job, and if they're on benefits they should be drug tested as they're all druggies" sister is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

I guess the way forward is for those who can pay more for membership and we form a new party. I can't stay a Labour member of Cornyn doesn't go. I can't stay in a party willing to lose.

I don't want more Tory misery. They caused hundreds to take their lives in benefit reforms and who knows how much hardship and misery to others. They have devided the nation with the referendum. Enough!

You'd be surprised in the US. A sizeable portion of Sanders' support will be moving to Trump - the white, low-income, fed-up with inequalities and the political status quo portion. (when I say "sizeable", 10% max - but still!)

I think its more that they are not offered that choice though...

I'm not sure about this. Many of them appear to be knowingly choosing UKIP over Corbyn. They want a welfare state and less inequalities, but they don't think it's achievable if immigrants come lower their wages and put pressure on public services.

Now obviously (says my smug middle-class self) that's not actually how it works, it's all much more complicated and nuanced than that. But my point is that a socialist discourse will not work very well with the working classes (it may work very well with the middle classes though), as long as they still identify immigration as the main issue in their life. Labour hasn't found a good way to tackle the issue yet. I don't know what is a good way to tackle the issue.

I don't vote Labour but I am tired of them going on about their traditional supporters. I see these as being predominantly male, white and quite often with fixed chauvinistic attitudes.

What about the 50% of society which is women? As someone said on one of these many threads, the old Labour/Trade unionist grouping, didn't bother to offer much support to the Birmingham dinner ladies, as just one example. Women have had to make their own opportunities over the last 50 years. Who is really talking about our needs - needs for good childcare, worries about schooling for their children, decently paid jobs, affordable housing? A whole group of women in the 60-65 age range have been shafted about the State Pension having to work longer to gain it, and with very little publicity about the planned changes, so that provision could be made.

So no, I don't sympathise too much with the mess Labour has got itself into, at a time when they should be absolutely laying into the Tories for abdicating any sense of leadership of the country.

Sorry, a bit of an unfocused rant. I only hope that Gove's political ambitions are also wrecked - after all, he has repeatedly told us, he is not suited to being a PM.

Still catching up on this thread, but...

On another note, since it's been a week full of impossibilities, who's up for a Wales / Iceland final in the Euros?

Fuck, yeah! Although I'm not sure who I'd cheer for - they are both equally deserving underdog teams. (I don't even like football - never watch it - but I like both these teams a lot, enough to make me watch for the first time since that World Cup in Italy when Gazza cried a lot - 1991?)

Believe me Ginger I'm not saying that over 60s aren't clever enough to figure stuff out, but my impression is that many voters in that age bracket have similar world views to DMIL and her partner. His and her best paid jobs ever were 20 years ago at a skilled, manual level for a factory that no longer exists. Their wages now are lower than then, in terms of the actual pay they take home. My salary has more than trebled in the same time frame.

As individuals they are the sort of people who used to vote Labour, but what do any of the mainstream parties have to say to them? My DMIL feels shafted by the increase to state pension age, and really shouldn't have wanted the economic instability of Brexit because of the effect on the value of her pension even though it's diddly squat, not to mention she has 2 immigrant DILs whom she's very fond of.

I do believe that many normal, not wealthy people voted with their hearts, not their heads last week. That's not to say that they couldn't understand the arguments, but I really don't believe that huge numbers of Leave voters had perceived the inconsistencies in the Leave campaign, for which Remain have a lot to answer for. I do believe that almost everyone voted in good faith for what they felt was right, it's just that I don't think that many had really appreciated the true implications of a Leave win.

FwIW, despite my criticisms, I don't believe that we should ignore the very powerful (though flawed) mandate it has given Parliament, like re running the referendum. That would be chilling, and undemocratic.

Ps, the salary trebling isn't a stealth boast, my graduate job paid about £12k in the late 90s, I took out further debt to get a professional qualification, and now I have a comfortable, but not mega wealthy living.

Somewhere between 30,000 and 50,000 people marched against Brexit in London today.

That's a lot.

It's done now. We just have to decide how to move forward. For the Tories May is probably a shoe in which it great news. It is nice to have a woman in charge against - HM Queen, May, Clinton and Merkel is my dream team to lead the Western world. That's the asy bit.
Labour is in tatters and that's an easy bit too and there probably won't be an election untio 2020 so they have a while to sort themselves out.

That leaves us with sorting out the massive Euro-mess. Either we con the Brexiters with some free-movement EEA arrangement or we shaft the nation by serving the Art 50 notice, leaving in 2 years and having a lot of customs duties and an ordinary WTO deal. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. We cannot delay too long as that gives business and other EU members uncertainty. I doubt we can get away with not serving the notice and I don't believe it needs Parliamentary approval (although senior lawyers disagree on that point).

I suspect that a significant number of people would be happy with an EEA arrangement, certainly in the short to medium term 5 -10 years, perhaps with the hope that we sit back and wait for the rest of the EU to implode. With a Grexit for a starter and we then go back to something like the EEC was.

Might have a VERY long wait for the EU to implode.
Just because we've shot ourselves in the arse doesn't mean they will.
Brexiters will probably continue to hope so, or they'll look very silly some years on.

Grexit would just be getting rid of a country that requires massive amounts of EU funding, which is why the public so far refused to go that far, despite all the misery.
Frexit would indeed end the EU, hence why the EU prioritise discouraging them and not a sweetheart deal for the UK.

I wouldn't like to see an EEA arrangement, but that's just me. I feel if we're going to leave, then we should make an attempt not to be so closely bound to the EU that we may as well have stayed.

Being 60_ (minus a few hrs !) and with a wc dad, I grew up in the world of get a steady job, stay there 40 years, retire on a good pension....

My parents were born at the end of WW ONE, so I heard about the rise of fascism from those who saw it - but didn't realise at the time. Fascism was new then though; we really should have learned.

My dad also told of growing up in the desperate poverty of the Depression, large family, literally barefoot on the breadline - my gran pawned her remaining pair of shoes for food and walked barefoot home. Like all her neighbours eventually. The kids all left school at 14 and worked hard manual jobs, to help feed the family.

Those of you from mc families probably regard that as another world and would better understand my mum's Arab Coptic mc family, who hardly noticed the Depression.
She and I became desperately poor after dad died early though, so I had to support myself from age 18, no windfall inheritance for me.
So I understand some of what happens when you start adulthood with no mc (or white) privilege.

BBC News:

Among the speakers at the pro-EU rally in Parliament Square was musician and Remain campaigner Bob Geldof.

During the EU referendum campaign, he memorably launched a boat on the Thames to challenge Ukip leader Nigel Farage.

He told crowds at the 'March for Europe' to take to the streets, speak to their neighbours and work to stop the UK's exit from the EU.

We have two years where we need to find the energy, the strength, to not just pitch up in London on the lovely July Saturday. We need to individually organise ourselves. Organise those around us and do everything possible within our individual power to stop this country being totally destroyed.
Going online and tweeting your indignation is only venting into the ether. It achieves nothing. Come out. Take action amongst your friends, work colleagues and in your neighbourhoods. Don't get angry. Respect them. Talk to them. Ask if they understand that with their vote to leave they took their country's future with them.