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Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

941 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 12:08

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

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GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 16:56

My problem here is we have big name people saying "we're going to stop the UK's exit from the EU" and "ask if they understand that with their vote to leave they took their country's future with them."

Attaway to heal the divide, Bob. Hmm

DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 17:16

I feel if we're going to leave, then we should make an attempt not to be so closely bound to the EU that we may as well have stayed.

Yes, Ginger, I agree.

I am suspicious of the motivations of Tories who are looking for that.

rookiemere · 02/07/2016 17:17

It serves nobody to give Bob Geldof air time.

I believe that he pushed a lot of people towards voting Leave with his childish antics pre the vote.

Why would a late middle aged tax dodger sway anyones views? Why would we keep repeating the tactics that clearly didn't work pre-election?

We need to start talking about extreme poverty and engaging on a proper level with people that's right, but dragging out the same old luvvies is not going to cut it. Bob seems to forget it's not 1984 anymore. We need relevant people who can engage with the public.

GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 17:26
Grin
GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 17:28

And here we go......

From BBC News feed:

Rallies call for independent Wales
Posted at
17:09
Caernarfon rally
BBC
Two rallies have also been held in Wales calling for the nation to become an independent country within the EU.

Hundreds of people gathered on the Maes in Caernarfon, Gwynedd, and Cardiff for the protest organised by campaign group A Free Wales in Europe/Cymru Rydd yn Ewro.

Pro-Brexit campaigner David Jones MP said what the campaign group called for was "profoundly undemocratic".

Protester Ifan Morgan Jones, who attended the gathering in Caernarfon, said: "Despite a majority in Wales voting out of the European Union, the vote was actually extremely close, with 48% voting to stay in.

Flufflepuff · 02/07/2016 17:40

I think everyone needs a lesson in what democracy is. We seem to be moving to a system where people are being told they're not allowed to protest any decision in public - that's not ok.

Much as I disagree with many groups and causes of the world, they can all protest and petition and hold public rallies can't they - isn't that the point of living in a democracy?

Citizens using their right for free speech should not be sneered at by any MP.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2016 17:54

The Brexiters have been campaigning for decades to change the result of the 1st referendum.
Farage, when he though he'd lost, said that 52:48 for Remain woukd just mean the struggle would continue.

Also, political parties start campaigning again immdpediately after they lose a General Election, to get in themselves and undo what the other lot plan.
Especially when it looks like the other side won by using unfair means.

So, democracy is not shutting up between votes every 40 years or 5 years, but continual campaigning.

That can make people uncomfortable if they suspect time may show they made a horrible mistake. They'd rather everyone shut up about it, maybe so the mistake is forgotten by the next GE.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2016 18:07

This whole mess is a squabble between the Tory "moderate" and rightwings that got out of hand.

Some Tory financial backers - especially the shock adverse City of London and big business - thought it was mainly a squabble about cutting back the welfare state and lowering taxes. They don't do nationalism.

The Masters of the Universe didn't think ahead or read the small print

The City's status as the premier financial centre of Europe depends totally on Financial Passporting. That's impossible without Free Movement of EU citizens. It's not just an EU negotiating position: it's the raison d'etre of the whole shebang.

With Labour imploding, the Tories can probably win elections after losing their UKIP wingnut tendency.
However 50% of the party’s funding comes from the City of London. Losing their support is an existential crisis for the Tory Party.

The Tories have a choice between keeping their funding or keeping their wingnuts.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 18:11

The Bonkers Leave.Eu are on the case again.

#Post-Fact Brit

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues
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Helmetbymidnight · 02/07/2016 18:13

I can't see how labour can reconcile the two broad groups in the party.

The internationalists, the professionals, the civil servants, the bus workers the teachers have effectively been fucked over by the get a grippers, the WC of Wales, Cornwall, Sunderland, etc.

I can't imagine how a leader can hope to unite them. I wouldn't be surprised to see new parties forming soon.

Helmetbymidnight · 02/07/2016 18:14

Bus = nhs!

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 18:15

Geldolf should fuck off back to 1984...

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 18:27

That Barbara Streisand Effect Deleted Telegraph Article on May:

In the run-up to the 2015 election, one of the handicaps David Cameron had to finesse was the fact that net migration to the UK was three times as high as he had promised it would be. Remarkably, none of the opprobrium this failure provoked brought forth the name of Theresa May, the cabinet minister actually entrusted with bringing migration down. Then, as now, it was as if the icy Home Secretary had a dark magic that warded off all critical scrutiny.

The fact that her lead role in this fiasco went unnoticed and unmentioned likely reflects Mrs May’s brilliant, all-consuming efforts to burnish her image with a view to become prime minister.

After all, Mrs May’s tenure as Home Secretary has been little better than disastrous – a succession of derelictions that has left Britain’s borders and coastline at least as insecure as they were in 2010, and which mean that British governments still rely on guesswork to estimate how many people enter and leave the country.

People find this hard to credit because she exudes determination and strength. Compared to many of her bland, flabby cabinet colleagues, she has real gravitas. And few who follow British politics would deny that she is a deadly political infighter. Indeed Theresa May is to Westminster what Cersei Lannister is to Westeros in Game of Thrones: no one who challenges her survives undamaged, while the welfare of the realm is of secondary concern.

Take the demoralised, underfunded UK Border Force. As the public discovered after a people-smugglers’ vessel ran aground in May, it has has only three cutters protecting 7,700 miles of coastline. Italy by contrast has 600 boats patrolling its 4722 miles.

Considering the impression Mrs May gives of being serious about security, it’s all the more astonishing that she has also allowed the UK’s small airfields to go unpatrolled – despite the vastly increased terrorist threat of the last few years, the onset of the migration crisis, and the emergence of smuggling networks that traffic people, drugs and arms.

Then there is the failure to establish exit checks at all the country’s airports and ports. These were supposed to be in place by March 2015.

Unfortunately the Border Force isn’t the only organisation under Mrs May’s control that is manifestly unfit for purpose. Recent years have seen a cavalcade of Home Office decisions about visas and deportations that suggest a department with a bizarre sense of the national interest.

The most infamous was the refusal of visas to Afghan interpreters who served with the British forces in Afghanistan – as Lord Guthrie said, a national shame.

Mrs May has kept so quiet about this and other scandals – such as the collapse of the eBorders IT system, at cost of almost a billion pounds – that you might imagine someone else was in charge the Home Office.

[It’s not just a matter of the odd error. Yvette Cooper pointed out in 2013 that despite Coalition rhetoric, the number of people refused entry to the UK had dropped by 50 per cent, the backlog of finding failed asylum seekers had gone up and the number of illegal immigrants deported had gone down.]

The reputation for effectiveness that Mrs May nevertheless enjoys derives from a single, endlessly cited event: the occasion in 2014 when she delivered some harsh truths to a conference of the Police Federation.

Unfortunately this was an isolated incident that, given the lack of any subsequent (or previous) effort at police reform, seems to have been intended mainly for public consumption.

In general Mrs May has avoided taking on the most serious institutional problems that afflict British policing. These include a disturbing willingness by some forces to let public relations concerns determine policing priorities, widespread overreliance on CCTV, the widespread propensity to massage crime numbers, the extreme risk aversion manifested during the London riots, and the preference for diverting police resources to patrol social media rather than the country’s streets.

There is also little evidence that Mrs May has paid much attention to the failure of several forces to protect vulnerable girls from the ethnically-motivated sexual predation seen in Rotherham and elsewhere. Nor, despite her supposed feminism, has Mrs May’s done much to ensure that girls from certain ethnic groups are protected from forced marriage and genital mutilation. But again, Mrs May has managed to evade criticism for this.

When considering her suitability for party leadership, it’s also worth remembering Mrs May’s notorious “lack of collegiality”.

David Laws’ memoirs paint a vivid picture of a secretive, rigid, controlling, even vengeful minister, so unpleasant to colleagues that a dread of meetings with her was something that cabinet members from both parties could bond over.

Unsurprisingly, Mrs May’s overwhelming concern with taking credit and deflecting blame made for a difficult working relationship with her department, just as her propensity for briefing the press against cabinet colleagues made her its most disliked member in two successive governments.

It is possible that Mrs May’s intimidating ruthlessness could make her the right person to negotiate with EU leaders. However, there’s little in her record to suggest she possesses either strong negotiation skills or the ability to win allies among other leaders, unlike Michael Gove, of whom David Laws wrote “it was possible to disagree with him but impossible to dislike him,”

It’s surely about time – and not too late – for conservatives to look behind Mrs May’s carefully-wrought image and consider if she really is the right person to lead the party and the country.

There’s a vast gulf between being effective in office, and being effective at promoting yourself; it’s not one that Theresa May has yet crossed.

The smear strategy on May seems like its going to be Rochdale and 'letting the Islamics have their Sharia then'.... Hmm

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OneArt · 02/07/2016 18:28

Flufflepuff to be fair, he said that what they were calling for was 'profoundly undemocratic', not the fact that they were calling for it.

TheBathroomSink · 02/07/2016 18:58

The Telegraph is rabidly 'Out', I seriously think they'd support Gove if he wasn't completely toxic, so they seem to be throwing themselves behind Leadsom, which is a little surprising given how anti-anything female the DT usually is. And I seriously doubt the DT gives the slightest of fucks about protecting girls from FGM and forced marriage.

I also suspect she no longer holds the title of "most disliked member in two successive governments".

Chalalala · 02/07/2016 18:59

I feel if we're going to leave, then we should make an attempt not to be so closely bound to the EU that we may as well have stayed.

Yes, Ginger, I agree.

I am suspicious of the motivations of Tories who are looking for that.

Well, they all have nefarious motivations, right?

The moderate Tories want to stay in the Single Market to protect the status quo and their banker friends

The ideological Brexit Tories want to leave the Single Market because they see it as a protectionist, rights-enforcing ball and chain, and they have a grand vision of a Britain kicking arse in a globalised ultraliberal paradise

It's a matter of picking your poison, but I still prefer the former. I think Britain needs to cut its losses and settle for a not-as-good-but-not-awful EU deal, which could at least have the merit of putting the EU question to rest in British politics.

I'm pretty risk adverse, so unlike our friend Gove I'm not keen on the "creative destruction" strategy. Destroying Britain's economy and rebuilding it from scratch, just on the offchance we end up with something better, doesn't do it for me. Especially with Tories at the helm - it doesn't strike me as likely to produce my preferred outcome for British society.

TheBathroomSink · 02/07/2016 19:05

On the subject of 60+ outers, my parents are in their late 60s, solidly middle class, probably Conservative at heart, although I know they flirted with the LDs for a while. My dad voted out because he is convinced the EU is going to implode in the next couple of years, he doesn't see how it can continue with the bailouts.
He has some knowledge in large scale finance, and while I suspect he probably knows what he's talking about, I think he underestimates the political resolve to keep the Union together. But, I respect his decision because it was based on what he knew, and he can talk about it at a level I don't understand.
He understands finance far better than I do, but I think he is politically naive, and I know I understand politics better than he does - he still thinks of it in terms of public service to some extent.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 19:16

cough cough

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues
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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 19:18

excuse the spellings mistakes. Blush

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DoinItFine · 02/07/2016 19:30

I'm pretty risk averse too.

But it seems insane to me to take the risk, which we already have, and then fail to see if your risk pays off.

Creative destruction is on.

We either cancel it and see what we can maintain of our previous position.

Or we leave and see if the freedoms it offers help in other ways.

The EEA is all the risk and none of thr reward.

Worse than pointless.

And there is no way the issue of Europe will be put to bed if we are still in the EU and still paying for it but not even at the table.

People will (rightly) feel betrayed.

YaraThePirateQueen · 02/07/2016 19:45

I think the eea option is the least worst option if we do leave. The big disadvantage of the uk losing it's place at the table doesn't seem like such a bad thing when we have idiots like farage speaking for us Sad

YaraThePirateQueen · 02/07/2016 19:49

On a lighter note, my predictive text now suggests 'farage' as the most likely word to follow 'idiot' Grin

GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 19:49

I agree, I'm risk averse for the most part. But tying ourselves back to the EU in what is basically all pain, no gain, seems to be the very opposite of what we want, which IMO is what the EEA option is.

Chalalala · 02/07/2016 19:50

Does it not worry you that leaving the Single Market is the preferred option of the worst (in my view) Tories, though? And if they get their way, we'll get, well... their way? (or are you playing the long game here?)

(I don't think Britain will stay in the EEA, by the way, I think it will end up somewhere between Norway and Canada. Most likely with some immigration control.)

GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 19:51

Those in the know, what positives does the WTO (if that is indeed the correct letters - I'm a bit coffee challenged at the moment) offer in comparison?

And for that matter, there are loads of countries around the world that are NOT part of the EU. What do they do? Why couldn't we follow that model?

Alright those of you that are experts.... let's have it. Grin