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Brexit

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

941 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 12:08

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

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RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 13:14

Carney is trying to avoid all that and also to ensure any house price reduction is gradual, to avoid mc panic.

I think we'll go negative... watch your pensions and savings.

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howtorebuild · 02/07/2016 13:17

Interesting comment on savings. I noted trading had stopped a few days ago and advised a relative to bail on them and move money to a building society. Barclays blocked them from obtaining a bankers draft, they had a cheque book for the account and wrote themselves a cheque into the building society which gave better interest rates. Good luck getting money out of some banks.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2016 13:18

Don't forget Tony Blair with his mug of tea, or his shirt sleeves rolled up in 'let's get to work' mode.

There was a bit of this in The Thick of It where there is the episode where the Tory minister is told to remove his tie, and then there is debate about whether he should have his shirt untucked.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2016 13:21

Very interesting, red
It looks like Leave very scientifically & professionally used psychology to a far greater extent than any British political party.

Is that typical of the US, or new to them ?
Will Trump use it to pull off a win ? Psychologists probably find it much easier to stir up fear of the other, because that instinct evolved at least 200,000 years ago as a survival measure, so is more visceral and ingrained.
More difficult for progressives to use such tactics because the rich are not so easily visualised like that.

When Hitler tapped into fury of the left behind, he was successful because he picked out an identifiable racial group and scapegoated them as the rich sucking up all the German wealth, not the rich in general.

I'm very concerned about McDonnell's statement "Brexit will end Free Movement" because he seemed to be jumping on a nasty bandwagon, to take votes from UKIP.

btw, will the new Tory PM buy in these professional psychologists to do the same in a GE ?
We've always had the background of anti-immigration & Murdoch helping them. Think what they could achieve if these methods actually work, even for only a few %

Chalalala · 02/07/2016 13:30

I'm very concerned about McDonnell's statement "Brexit will end Free Movement" because he seemed to be jumping on a nasty bandwagon, to take votes from UKIP.

Or he's hoping that Brexit will put the issue to rest by doing the dirty work, and that Labour can now move on and get back all those UKIP voters.

I think he's dreaming. The immigration issue is not going away any time soon.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 13:39

Is that typical of the US, or new to them ?

Its standard for the US. Has been for years.

When I studied this, we'd just had the General Election when Tony Blair came in, and we spent some time studying the 'New Labour, New Danger' poster, that the Conservatives used. It was perhaps the first UK election it started happening.

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues
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nauticant · 02/07/2016 13:43

That Blair poster wasn't so inaccurate in hindsight. Only joking!

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2016 13:45

Theresa May doesn't do deals apparently. She has banned talks of deals and negative briefings. (From the Times behind paywall I think)

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues
RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 13:50

Not New Britannia. It was Cool Britannia wasn't it.

Shit memory.

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Chalalala · 02/07/2016 13:52

I think the media have some big lessons to take too.

And I don't mean the DM, I mean the mainstream "serious" tv/radio/newspapers. I think they're weren't prepared for the onslaught of post-truth politics, they didn't have a strategy to deal with it. So they dealt with Leave's more ridiculous claims in the only way they knew how, by discussing them seriously, thereby giving them credibility.

That's how they dealt with the £350 claim, or with Turkey - they discussed them seriously, even if it was to explain how misleading they were, but in the end it still stuck with people because there's no smoke without fire, right? By the mere fact of discussing them, it made it appear like they were debatable opinions, not plain old lies.

Maybe by the time the US presidential campaign is over, the Democrats will have developed effective tools to fight the post-truth mechanisms. We can only hope.

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 13:55

I think one of the real issues with the traditional political parties is precisely because they have not adapted well to the rise of social media.

They don't understand it, and its power well.

They are still too reliant on traditional media.

UKIP have and do.

I therefore find it interest that the Daily Mail, have also published the story about Banks and McKenna. I wonder whether Dacre and Murdoch fear him somehow. My opinion, is perhaps they should do....

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StatisticallyChallenged · 02/07/2016 13:59

It was cool britannia, Bleurgh.

Negative rates are a very distinct possibility I'd say. It's not like we've got far to go and if keeping the system liquid and stopping property crashing is the priority...course if inflation goes wild it could go the other way entirely to try and strengthen the pound. Quite possibly both in succession!

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2016 14:01

That bloody thing about 76 million Turks lining up to come here swung it for Leave I reckon. The thing were Cameron was in favour of Turkey joining the EU made them think he couldn't be trusted.

Interesting polling data (yeah, I know, polls...) says:
^They also found that only 17% believed the Remain campaign's claim that leaving the EU would make households £4,300 per year worse off.
That compared to 45% who believed the Leave claim that Turkey would be fast-tracked into the EU, if we stayed in, with their population given the right of free movement to the UK.^

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36648769

Chalalala · 02/07/2016 14:02

it is maybe relevant that Obama won his terms largely because his supporters did harness the power of social media... also the reason why Sanders went as far as he did

simple solution really - we need a British Obama.

GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 14:04

Rallies held to support Jeremy Corbyn
Posted at
13:57
Events have been taking place in support of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, following calls for him to quit.

One of them was held in Leeds, from where BBC North of England correspondent Judith Moritz sent these Tweets:

View image on Twitter
View image on Twitter
Follow
Judith Moritz @JudithMoritz
Supporters of @jeremycorbyn and @PeoplesMomentum in Leeds say "we want our party back" #BBCNews
12:02 PM - 2 Jul 2016
109 109 Retweets 122 122 likes
Report
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Judith Moritz @JudithMoritz
Supporters of @PeoplesMomentum at rally in Leeds dismiss criticism of #Corbyn by Neil Kinnock
12:11 PM - 2 Jul 2016

JedRambosteen · 02/07/2016 14:07

Too true still. I am literally agog with it all. It's like a parallel universe.

Still on p9, but I had a similar conversation with DH earlier in the week. I said that somewhere in a parallel universe, the great British public voted to remain and everything is pretty normal, apart from a few grumpy Brexiters. At the moment it feels like we jumped the tracks and are now following another universe's timeline, instead of our own. Things need to start getting back to normal, sooner rather than later please....

RedToothBrush · 02/07/2016 14:09

That Blair poster wasn't so inaccurate in hindsight.

Hindsight is a wonderful isn't it.

Thing is, I bought the whole Cool Britannia thing, hook line and sinker at the time.

So when I think about that, in relation to how people might have seen the Leave campaign, can I really call them stupid? I'm not stupid. I was mid way through a degree about this. I still bought it. Perhaps something to reflect on, in the whole 'stupid people voted Brexit' argument.

People do believe what they want to believe rather than having a logic and rational behind it.

Why did I vote for Labour over the Conservatives in 1997? It certainly wasn't because I critically examined the manifestos of both parties (which I might be a lot more inclined to do in my old age).

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Chalalala · 02/07/2016 14:10

I wonder what is the ideal outcome for Corbyn supporters - the MPs all change their minds, decide that they all trust him after all, and everyone's one big happy family? How are they going to explain their "change of heart" to the media, and to the sniggering politicians on the other side? They'll never manage to move on from this.

GingerIvy · 02/07/2016 14:12

From 1st July BBC News:

John Prescott: Labour leadership woes are 'midsummer madness'
Posted at
16:57
1 Jul
John Prescott
PA
Labour's former deputy prime minister Lord Prescott has waded into the row over Jeremy Corbyn's leadership saying: "He's only been in the job nine months - do you know anyone who gets sacked within nine months?"

He says he doesn't agree with the MPs trying to oust Mr Corbyn, but concedes: "They are the parliamentary candidates", who are answerable to their constituencies "at the end of the day".

Stressing that he doesn't have a vote, Lord Prescott says: "At the end of the day I believe in democracy and he is the leader on a democratic mandate and if you want to change it use our rules and put up somebody and fight.

"At the moment,do we know if there’s somebody from Labour at the moment? It just seems a lot of huffing and puffing and I’m going to put it down to the midsummer madness. “

Chalalala · 02/07/2016 14:14

Thing is, I bought the whole Cool Britannia thing, hook line and sinker at the time.

So when I think about that, in relation to how people might have seen the Leave campaign, can I really call them stupid? I'm not stupid

Same thing with Obama. He was selling hope and change, not a plan. So the progressive happy liberal version of Brexit, really.

nauticant · 02/07/2016 14:15

I was fortunate in that I took one look at Blair and had an instinctive gut-feeling that he was a charlatan. That feeling never faded.

Any politician who is desperate to be adored is almost certain to be a nightmare.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2016 14:23

The attack ads that Howard tried against Labour were an absurd failure. I still felt something nasty about the ads at the time and felt repelled from the Tories, not from Labour.
May just have been early teething problems ?
Or maybe they only work when they can use a viscerally emotive issue like immigration, rather than trying to make a respectable mc white make look scary.
Hypnotism has worked effectively to help some folk lose weight or stop smoking, but totally failed on others. Our elections generally turn on just a few % though.

I really hope Merkel, Hollande & co have minions reading the Fail and can plan in time how to combat such these alarming new methods in their countries.

Marine Le Pen campaigned in the UK alongside a UKIP former MEP, so she had ample opportunity to learn about the new methods.
With French elections only 10 months away, Hollande needs to get his arse in gear.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/07/2016 14:26

The Tories are succesful because they learn, act ruthlessly against leaders who can't fully lead and move on. They don't try to patch up a sinking ship.

Labour supporters are STILL distracting themselves by agonising over Blair's failings. He is not the enemy.
Don't let anger at his MASSIVE lie hide the fact he was and still would be miles better than any past Tory PM and especially the current vile Tory choices.

Focus on the real enemy or they'll keep winning.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2016 14:33

Three reasons the Tories will be looking to crown Theresa May rather than have her put to a vote:

  1. uncertainty bad for the country
  2. and the Tory party
  3. if they get this done and dusted quickly they can still go on holiday in August

(Paraphrased from Twitter).

Arborea · 02/07/2016 14:33

Can we dial back a bit, to the poster (Salty?) who asked why so many people aged 60 - 80 voted Leave? My MIL, and her husband being the 2 I think of first (possibly my DPs and FIL plus his partner too, though we never discuss politics). Their children and spouses (all in our 40s) pretty much all voted Remain, and our family includes 2 Eastern European immigrant DILs who are clearly personally affected.

I was struck on a different referendum thread that someone said that we should pay attention to the views of the 60+ generation because they (unlike us) remember what the country was like pre EU, and although that's true I also think that that generation have not come to terms with the fact that globalisation means that a Leave vote won't dial us back to the economic conditions of the 1970s. The fact is that as a country the UK barely exports much 'stuff', and the importance of having the UK manufacture things to sell either at home or abroad has not been something that any post Thatcher government has been interested in assisting. The result is the loss of lots of respected, respectable, skilled manual jobs, which used to pay enough to support a family (ship-building, mining, making ceramics etc in the Potteries etc). The alternative employment available is often zero hour, minimum wage stuff, which isn't as high status.

These people (often men, mostly white) should be forgiven for feeling unsettled and insecure even though I expect many would find this condescending, and I feel that they used to be Labour's core constituency, but that Labour no longer know how to represented them. Principled ideology is all well and good, but it doesn't make people proud of themselves. I sense that behind a lot of the anti immigration/political correctness/health and safety gone maaad/ England flag waving shtick out there is a feeling that the white working class aren't secure and are frightened.

These are the people that mainstream politicians need to represent properly, and I am afraid that the current parties just don't. Labour is falling apart and up its own arse, the Lib Dems are incorrigibly middle class, and no one will convince me that the Tories are capable of looking after anyone but the wealthiest and pretending to care about middle England. I am sceptical that a "progressive alliance" of the current parties would be able to put old baggage aside and come up with something new which genuinely supports the fears of the white working class, while not shitting on the middle class, or being so revolutionary that big business is scared off to our EU neighbours.

Basically I think we need the anti UKIP, run by the good guys, who are smart enough to figure out what the bad guys are doing. Anyone else agree?

P.S. Thanks for the Irish Times article: totally captures what's wrong with the business of politics today, now all we need are some decent responses. Let's hope the Democrats can find a way.

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