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Brexit

Boris outmaneovered. Et tu Gove & Corbyn? The Westministenders Hunger Games Continues

941 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 12:08

Following the Machiavellian Govian shambles? Utterly gobsmacked at the Labour clusterfuck?

Who will strike next?

Who will the shadowy hand of Osborne back?
Can Gove be launched back into space and back to the planet he came from?
Can May save the country from almost certain doom?
Will Leadsom patronise us all to death (whilst silently stabbing people in the back with a sweet smile)?
Can Johnson make a decision he can stick to, and can we persuade him to give up being a politician?
Will Steven Crabb get rid of that god awful beard?

Will Corbyn shoot himself in the other foot?
Will Angela Eagle get a spine and just stand?
Who the fuck is Owen Smith?
Will the Blairites be foiled and damned?
Are momentum a bunch of thugs or a force for a better, for the people?

Will Farage disappear back under his rock?
Will people wake up to Arron Banks?
What will Dominic Cummings destroy next?

Have we seen a coup d'état?
How do we improve democracy and representation?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

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MuddhaOfSuburbia · 01/07/2016 22:09

hell, if that actually WORKED, it makes us even stupider than I thought we were

this is scary

it gets scarier every day

HemanOrSheRa · 01/07/2016 22:18

Muddha I think it was aimed at people who wouldn't normally have voted at all because they couldn't see the point. I usually work as a poll clerk, I couldn't this year for various reasons. I think it would have been interesting. I also do canvassing for electoral services. That is very interesting.

noblegiraffe · 01/07/2016 22:18

The leave camp definitely had way better propaganda than remain. Wasn't it Gove that leaked that the Queen supported Brexit?

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 22:19

Interestingly enough, it seems I'm not the only one bothered. The link and story below is dated yesterday. (The link contained in that stories under more recent calls, is a lengthy report called, Report Of The All-Party Parliamentary inquiry into electoral Conduct Oct 2013. I'm skimming through it at the moment, but there are some paragraphs in it that have jumped out at me straight away in the context on the referendum. I may copy and paste a few bits later or tomorrow. This issue seems to be that it all rests on 'self regulation' which is a bit of issue if you have an Arron Banks running around making posters like THAT one. It begs the question as to whether some of this may need to be revisited - not that I believe in censorship - and some other way to highlight or deal with problematic politic communications).

www.cap.org.uk/News-reports/Media-Centre/2016/Political-advertising.aspx#.V3bal4-cFMs

Political advertising and the CAP Code

30 June 2016
Political ads, and the parties, issues and policies they promote, often inspire contention and debate. If the principle function of an ad (from any source, not just established political parties) is to influence voters in local, regional, national or international elections or referenda, it falls outside of the scope the CAP Code (but if it’s not intended to influence voters, then it would be covered like any other ad).

In the wake of the UK’s EU Referendum, we have become aware of calls for the CAP Code to apply to political advertising so this can be regulated by the ASA. While we understand the generally widespread desire for political ads to be subject to the same standards of truthfulness and decency that all UK advertisers have to abide by, there are some very good reasons why political ads are exempt from regulation by the ASA system. Not least because regulating traditional advertising is very different from regulating material that forms part of the democratic process (and also from regulating the press, which is why we don’t cover editorial content either).

One of the main reasons for the exemption (in Section 7) is that it would be inappropriate, and perhaps unhelpful, for the self-regulatory body for the advertising industry to intervene in the democratic process. The history behind the exclusion helps explain more about why this is the case.

Then

Until 1999, non-broadcast political advertising was subject to some rules in the CAP Code. However, following the 1997 General Election, CAP took into account several factors that risked bringing advertising regulation into disrepute and made the decision to exclude political ads from the ASA’s remit. These factors included the short, fixed timeframes over which elections run, the likelihood that ads could be ruled upon after an election had taken place and concerns that the independence of the system could be damaged by rulings for or against political parties. The absence of a consensus between the main political parties on bringing political advertising wholly within the scope of the Code also contributed to this decision.

In 1998, CAP referred the matter to the Neill Committee on Standards in Public Life which recommended that political parties should establish a code of best practice in partnership with the advertising industry (the report presented to Parliament in July 1999 can be found here).

And then, in 2003, the Electoral Commission conducted a consultation on the regulation of electoral advertising and concluded that the ASA should not bear the responsibility for regulating such advertising. The Commission didn’t establish a separate code at the time and this remains the case today. It’s not for us to say whether or not a body or code should be established but we understand that there have been more recent calls and support for a voluntary code of practice.

Now

Ultimately, the best course of action for anyone with concerns about a political ad is to contact the party responsible and exercise their democratic right to tell them what they think. In the age of social media this is easier than ever, and gives everyone a platform to express their opinions and share their knowledge with the rest of the voting public.

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SugarPlumTree · 01/07/2016 22:30

Who knows if it did actually have an effect but I think it was far from random. It's years since I was University and had to use my brain but I do think that was very deliberate as to timing, composition, delivery, music etc. The outpouring of British pride on FB from my BIL makes him exactly the sort of person it would appeal to.

The primacy regency effect is well recognised and has been replicated in numerous studies. We did stuff on attitude change at University, we had to produce leaflets on Euthanasia aiming to persuade people to change their view on it.. I can't remember more about it than that but there was a lot of research on it at the time and I graduated back in 1996.

I have had the whole it's just a nightmare feeling this week and a couple of others I spoke to have said much the same.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 22:35

FUCK ME

I have some reading to do.

This is a parliamentary report from 2013 that says:

38. We believe the potential for extreme campaigning to fracture communities underlines the case for campaigns being conducted in a responsible and discrimination-free climate. Where communities can be divided along cultural, religious or racial lines and tensions inflamed for electoral gain, candidates bear a moral imperative not to exploit those divisions.

holds head in hands in despair

I've just skimmed bits of this so far. I'm starting to get angry.

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RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 22:38

www.change.org/p/restore-truthful-politics-create-an-independent-office-to-monitor-political-campaigns
Yet another fucking petition. If anyone is interested.

Though I do have my own reservations about 'independent offices' as they rarely are.

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StillSmallVoiceOfQualms · 01/07/2016 22:39

Sounds interesting, red. This whole mess is not my area of expertise at all, so really appreciating your summaries and analysis.

StillSmallVoiceOfQualms · 01/07/2016 22:40

I was referring to the report rather than the petition - this bloody thread moves too fast!

HemanOrSheRa · 01/07/2016 22:46

I live in the same City as Aaron Banks. If I contact leave.eu can I look forward to waking up with a horses head in the bed?

Sugar I studied psychology in the late 80's. We did a lot of work around social psychology, subliminal advertising and stuff like A Clockwork Orange (we watched that, sworn to secrecy with the blinds closed Wink). It is so easy to influence people if they are ripe for the picking.

I think the leave campaign were very clever in causing confusion between problems caused by austerity and mixing them up with the EU. I know very little about how the EU works. What I do feel is there are more positives from being in the EU. The Working Time Directive for a start Sad.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 22:58

101. The Inter-parliamentary Union suggests that party ethics are key to “the integrity of the democratic process”. Given the reportedly declining interest and rising cynicism amongst the public towards democratic and political life, we believe it is of increasing importance that the UK is a beacon of good practice in this regard. Whilst there are recent examples that demonstrate there is work to be done, it was pleasing that so many of the UK’s leading political parties engaged fully and constructively with our inquiry. It would appear that for most mainstream political parties in the UK, anti-discrimination measures are not just a matter for their brand but a point of political principle. With the exception of the Respect party, all the political party groups represented in parliament submitted evidence to us. We were reassured to be informed about the number of good features or practices which these parties employ; a firm understanding of the laws relating to elections and discriminatory conduct; a requirement for candidates and members to abide by anti-discrimination principles written into their founding documents or constitutions; appropriate, albeit widely varying, disciplinary processes and a range of sanctions which can be administered if required. There are, however some disparities in approach from which we seek to draw out and illuminate what we consider to be good practice.

Noting that this was written in 2013 so a certain party had 0 politicians. Also noting here that the Referendum was a totally different animal as the parties were not responsible for campaigns in the same way, so potentially there was much less accountability, because its supposed to be self regulatory along party lines.

As I say, some reading to do on this.

I think some of this will come up in a referendum post-mortem into why we've suddenly seen an upsurge in racial and xenophobic incidents, but its a very interesting report to see before anyone else has started to draw conclusions from it.

I also note that this report was commissioned by John Mann MP, Chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism.

John Mann being one of the few Labour MPs to back Brexit. So he should have been particularly aware and sensitive of the problems that the tone and type of the campaigning going on and what its potential impact could be.

Hmm. Could get interesting, if someone is brave enough to start asking a few questions.

Anyway, that's it for me tonight...

My brain is starting to fry.

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HemanOrSheRa · 01/07/2016 23:09

One thing is for sure - I shall never roll my eyes at the bland 6.55pm Party Political Broadcasts again.

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2016 23:19

The official Leave Churchill NHS one also had me slightly Shock when I saw it.
If I get some time I might point out some techniques in it.
That one was far from 'bland'.

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Showmethewaytogohome · 01/07/2016 23:55

Dunno. Apart from the fact I am literally oblivious personally to any kind of marketing (we all watched the rubbish and were not affected) I can guarantee the numtee racists I know were motivated by newspapers and were generally racist already and agreed with the immigration crap BUT I do know most people who had never ever voted before voted leave and didn't understand (am not being patronising) that it was the government and not the EU that affected their day to day life.

Shall we all just fuck off to the Caribbean?

SapphireSeptember · 02/07/2016 00:11

Shall we all just fuck off to the Caribbean?

You can if you want to. I'm seriously considering getting an Italian passport (Italian grandmother) and it says my dad was born in Italy on my birth certificate...Nice-ish weather, even nicer food, and one of my favourite bands is from there. Grin

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2016 00:17

I just realised something with Gove and his fervent support for the Iraq war as a moral thing that must be done - there was no exit plan for that either. And look how well that turned out - pesky experts might have had a point.

HemanOrSheRa · 02/07/2016 00:37

I have to confess that I didn't watch any of the brexit campaign ads because I just knew the way I wanted to vote.

Someone posted the voting stats for our area on fb today. It was interesting. Not surprising and a very scary Sad. It proved to me that the LP has gone very wrong.

Tell me when and where I need to be Show I'll join you. I'm quite frightened by all this, I must say Sad.

EatsShitAndLeaves · 02/07/2016 01:09

Can't take the smile off my face.

In a week of shit..Wales 3, Belgium 1.

It's been a shit week in politics but a great one in sport Grin

Appleand · 02/07/2016 01:12

Why are people so anti-Corbyn? Surely the policies should matter more than political ambitions? I don't want the next Labour leader whoever that will be to be another Tory-lite Labour MP. Might as well vote tory

officerhinrika · 02/07/2016 01:59

I went to an informal Labour Party meeting tonight. It was really to give people the chance to talk, politics anonymous perhaps? An interesting selection of views,far more supporting Corbyn than not. Even amongst those who want a new leader there's still a lot of admiration for Corbyn and everyone quite appalled at the behaviour of the PLP ( going outside party process is a big no no). As a constituency with a Tory MP it's possible to feel rather left out sometimes.
Altogether though, a very depressed and slightly lost gathering, which is worrying as these are the people who campaign, are councillors, work in communities etc.
We are having another constituency wide post Mortem next week.

officerhinrika · 02/07/2016 02:00

Apple the words Tory Lite were used a lot at my meeting tonight too!

Fawful · 02/07/2016 02:31

(RedToothBrush, that NLP stuff is v interesting. I loved Paul McKenna (until 5 mins ago).
The question is, can we fight back & help make the case for altogether more helpful ways of looking at issues etc? I think I'd like to be involved in something like that, trying to find ways to put a message across effectively, so that it doesn't put people's defences up.
I don't know. This NLP business is awaking my controlling side because I've been worried about media manipulation and how far it could go, and it makes me want to do something.)

SaltyMyDear · 02/07/2016 06:05

I don't understand why remain and the current MPs are accepting the result of this referendum.

They could say leave campaign incited racial hatred or used brain washing or anything they wanted to claim the vote wasn't fair and therefore needs to be redone.

As Austria just has done.

It just feels like they did a terrible job of campaigning and now they're just rolling over.

Is it because they don't really care? Or don't really understand the implications of leaving the EU?

How many politicians are in this weird 60-80 age band who voted leave?

(Why did that age band vote to leave?)

howabout · 02/07/2016 06:41

No wonder I am so lighthearted and equivocal on this issue. Inspired by this thread I checked. DH is a French National through parentage. Supporting France against Iceland in the football and so far Andy Murray hasn't caused any nail biting incidents for me.

lljkk · 02/07/2016 06:41

You all worried about being Irish. I come from many generations born & raised abroad. My dad married a lady who was grandchild of an Italian immigrant. Soe she could get Italian passport. Then my dad got it thru her. But dad can't pass Italian passport to me.

My dad can live in EU but soon I won't be able to!! Urk.

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