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Brexit

Have Boris and Jeremy been stabbed in the back? Please can we have some leaders?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 16:48

And another thread about antics of President Boris and Comrade Jeremy and all their friends.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

Can we laugh or cry yet?

Are you still sane?

Will this insanity ever end?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
noblegiraffe · 29/06/2016 19:19

Johnson v Corbyn then it's an non-integrity/integrity Head to head.

I'm sure Jeremy could get some funding from Hamas for his campaign.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism

ObiWanCannelloni · 29/06/2016 19:21

birdsdestiny
maybe I'm just getting more jaded lately, but to me it isn't just the bias that was there, it is that papers are getting away with more outright lies (with small corrections days later) and increased focus on the personal (eg bacon buttie pics mean you're unfit for leadership)

To balance that, I think nowadays social media obv more important which is why it interest me that JC seems to have the support of younger/high usage social media types...

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 29/06/2016 19:26

I don't think JC's selfish, he still sees himself as having something important to contribute and, as is common with integrity-driven people, treads a fine line between self-sacrifice and bull-headedness.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 29/06/2016 19:28

I should add that he isn't power hungry, he doesn't particularly want to be leader, to be liked, and that has the reverse effect of not fazing him when he isn't wanted as much as it would your standard politician.

merrymouse · 29/06/2016 19:29

How do we know he can't appeal to the electorate?

Because he would have to appeal to people who might equally vote conservative - people who aren't massively interested in politics but always vote at a general election, who worry about cuts to disability benefits but don't naturally trust labour on the economy.

To win an election labour has to appeal to the broad spectrum, including Blairites. Remember Blair's name might be mud now, but a lot of people voted for a Labour Party that they thought wouldn't be 'the nasty party' but would be 'safe'. People still talk about labour in the 70's, and as we have seen, old people vote.

Saying what you believe is great. However, to win an election you need to be able to listen to what other people believe. Has he engaged with and built bridges with any groups that wouldn't be his natural supporters? The CBI for instance?

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 29/06/2016 19:33

god these threads move faaaast

watching C4 News

Corbyn looks exhausted

I believe that he's not holding onto power for its own sake, more that he's trying to do the right thing by the members

the PLP have been opportunistic arseholes. If they wanted rid they could have done it democratically. I'd like to give them a vote of no confidence

that said, he has to go. They've snookered him good and proper. I voted for him after a LOT of deliberation (lazy party member since 2010) -I won't vote for him again. Not because I don't want him to be the leader, but because he's completely hobbled by his own party behind him and the press in front of him

GingerIvy · 29/06/2016 19:40

And so it begins.....

BREAKING'Angela Eagle to challenge Jeremy Corbyn,' BBC has been told
Posted at
19:31
The BBC has been told that Angela Eagle will challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of the Labour Party on Thursday.

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 19:44

maybe I'm just getting more jaded lately, but to me it isn't just the bias that was there, it is that papers are getting away with more outright lies (with small corrections days later) and increased focus on the personal (eg bacon buttie pics mean you're unfit for leadership)

To balance that, I think nowadays social media obv more important which is why it interest me that JC seems to have the support of younger/high usage social media types...

The BBC had its bollocks chopped off by Murdoch some years ago.

I think C4 News has done a better job in recent years, but I must confess its still slightly off my radar cos I'd rather watch Hollyoaks on E4 at 7pm. I know I should probably pay more attention to it.

Social media has its very obvious flaws though no bullshit filter and I think its easy to get swamped in information.

Thing is with social media, is it doesn't tend to be investigative or critical in nature, and doesn't have any way of holding anyone to account for anything. Its also easily exploited and can be used for more 'sinister' purposes than most people realise. I think it is potential WORSE than the newspaper media we have.

It just strengthens the idea to me, that we need to teach people more about how to 'read' media. Too much is not quite what it seems.

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Muddlingalongalone · 29/06/2016 19:45

Sorry if I missed out but who are Henry & Beth in Sarah Vine's email.
Not suspicious at all that it got leaked....

I actually feel sorry for JC, think he's been treated terribly in many ways, I do think he's principled & be a people's champion for ordinary people. I also totally understand him wanting to stand his ground & not cave but we genuinely need proper opposition in this country especially if Johnson & the odious little twerp Gove get in otherwise the tory's will run riot & the NHS & education will be sold off to their rich mates before we even get to a GE

Hamishandthefoxes · 29/06/2016 19:49

Henry snd Beth are Gove's media advisors. Who'd have thought they would be the important people to take to this meeting.

merrymouse · 29/06/2016 19:51

I think Henry is Janet and Roy's son, and Beth is the lovely girl he works with. Janet and Roy are hoping for wedding bells soon.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/Christmas/2514516-Janet-and-Roy-2015

chocomochi · 29/06/2016 19:51

Feel sorry for JC as so many of his MPs seem to dislike him/his principles, and yet he still feels he needs to carry on.

And what on earth has happened to Boris Johnson?! He was bleeding everywhere before he referendum and now is nowhere to be seen!

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 19:52

Because he would have to appeal to people who might equally vote conservative - people who aren't massively interested in politics but always vote at a general election, who worry about cuts to disability benefits but don't naturally trust labour on the economy.

To win an election labour has to appeal to the broad spectrum, including Blairites. Remember Blair's name might be mud now, but a lot of people voted for a Labour Party that they thought wouldn't be 'the nasty party' but would be 'safe'. People still talk about labour in the 70's, and as we have seen, old people vote.

Labour need to go left to go right...

What I mean by that, is they need to reachout get back their core left wing voters and consolidate it (they are behind the curve and are being killed by UKIP on this).

Once they do that they can they go back right to the centre ground to get the 'disloyal' swing voters that centre ground holds. The Lib Dems look set to kill this area with disaffected Remain Tories (as the Conservatives lurch to the right to kill off that part of UKIP) and distraught Labour supports who can't stand the infighting. I am told that the Lib Dems have clocked up 10,000 new members since Friday (they got 20,000 after last years GE)

They can not go for the centre before going left, or they will get cut off at the knees by UKIP.

I think Labour have a long road ahead of them...

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frumpet · 29/06/2016 19:52

Andriukaitis says Scotland, Northern Ireland and London voting to remain shows that Britain is changing and many people want to see a different future.

“The EU is changing as well,” he adds. “For me its future lies in social justice and security. This is the way forward. And only together, with the EU member states, with the European parliament, and with a decisive European council – avoiding the cacophony and constant bashing of Brussels – can we achieve this together.”
Can we not get this man UK residency and get him to be in charge Grin

merrymouse · 29/06/2016 19:54

I think Boris is thinking it's probably nicer to have been PM than to actually be PM.

He is looking at and envying all his journalist friends having such fun writing about Brexit and remembering that being Mayor was quite boring.

Muddlingalongalone · 29/06/2016 19:54

Social media is an interesting dynamic - if we could vote electronically without mass fraud I think the social media generation who are more inclined to look at it critically in my experience than older generations (very small sample of my own experience) could seriously change the voting landscape.
But you have to use it well, appeal to them,get them interested & spoon feed them into voting & that is the challenge I guess

RedToothBrush · 29/06/2016 19:56

Who are Harry and Beth?

From the Guardian Feed:
Sarah Vine's leaked email - Analysis by Andrew Sparrow

Sarah Vine’s leaked email (see 4.41pm) is short, and there is very little detail or context in it, but nevertheless it is hugely revealing. Here is a paragraph-by-paragraph snap analysis.

Very important that we focus on the individual obstacles and thoroughly overcome them before moving to the next. I really think Michael needs to have a Henry or a Beth with him for this morning’s crucial meetings.

Analysis: That “we” is very telling. There is nothing unusual about a wife, or husband, offering their spouse support but that “we” suggests that the Gove/Vine operation is something of a duopoly. It is very House of Cards. Or, as Sky’s Kay Burley has said slightly less charitably, it makes Sarah Vine sound rather like Lady Macbeth.

The references to Henry and Beth are to Gove’s special advisers, Henry Cook, Henry Newman and Beth Armstrong. It is normal for cabinet ministers to take their advisers with them into meetings but there is a suggestion here that Gove needs to have someone sitting alongside him to strengthen his resolve. (This is surprising. Of the many complaints about Gove as a minister, lack of steel is not one. It is not spelt who the meetings are with, but they may well be Boris Johnson, and perhaps Gove finds it harder saying no to Johnson than he did to government colleagues.)

One simple message: You MUST have SPECIFIC assurances from Boris OTHERWISE you cannot guarantee your support. The details can be worked out later on, but without that you have no leverage.

Analysis: This is where Vine sets out the Gove/Vine negotiation red line. Sadly, the email does not say what those specific assurances are. A job? A policy commitment? Or perhaps both? But the key point is that Vine is describing this as a transaction. And she is also implying that Johnson cannot be trusted; the assurances have to be “specific” otherwise Johnson will not be bound by them. (Students of Boris Johnson would point out that even if Johnson has made a specific promise, that is no guarantee that he will keep it, but that’s another story.) And those capital letters are worth noting too. It is the epistolary equivalent of a rant. (At the risk of sounding like Kay Burley, Lady Macbeth would have typed her messages in caps if they had had email in 11th-century Scotland.)

Crucially, the membership will not have the necessary reassurance to back Boris, neither will Dacre/Murdoch, who instinctively dislike Boris but trust your ability enough to support a Boris Gove ticket.

Analysis: This reinforces the point about Johnson being untrustworthy. Vine’s claim that the party membership will need reassurance to back Johnson is surprising, because the regular ConservativeHome survey shows that members do support Johnson. But Vine is surely right when she talks about Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre (the editor of the Daily Mail). Vine used to work at the Times, and now works for the Mail, and therefore surely knows the internal politics of both media groups extremely well. Murdoch is known to be a strong supporter of Gove’s, and it is thought that Dacre rates him highly too (although the Mail may have its doubts about Gove’s liberal prisons agenda). The crucial claim is that Murdoch and Dacre “instinctively dislike” Johnson. If this is true, in Dacre’s case it may be because of Johnson’s womanising, and in Murdoch’s case it may be because of Johnson’s core liberalism. Vine says Gove’s key value to Johnson is his ability to win over Britain’s two most powerful press barons. Who said the power of the press was waning?

Do not concede any ground. Be your stubborn best.

Analysis: Or, as Lady M put it, “Screw your courage to the sticking place.” Kay Burley’s comparison seems more and more apt.

GOOD LUCK.

Analysis: Those caps seem to say: this matters. Gove himself may play down his personal ambition, but someone else in his household seems to be very ambitious on his behalf.

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merrymouse · 29/06/2016 19:59

to have continuity they need one person to reach both ends of the spectrum. The question is who? Yes, a long road toothbrush.

enochroot · 29/06/2016 20:05

I'm now convinced we are actually being led to the slaughter by various politicians' media advisers, PR people and tech savvy hangers-on. We don't elect these people.
Meanwhile no one is actually governing or even thinking beyond the next sound-bite or blog.

HPFA · 29/06/2016 20:06

Boris's chances seem to be diminishing. His Telegraph "manifesto" has been universally panned. I wonder if he is beginning to realise that he has lied too much during the Leave campaign.
Teresa May seems to have played things quite cleverly. She was very lukewarm for Remain so probably will be acceptable to Leavers but she won't have to apologise for all the lies told by them. I think she looks a good bet at the moment.

jubejube · 29/06/2016 20:09

I think the email is to osborne

CarolineNightmare · 29/06/2016 20:19

Sarah Vine email almost certainly to Dominic Cummings. (And he's a nasty piece of work, too.)

Arborea · 29/06/2016 20:20

Thanks to Redtoothbrush, GingerIvy and all the posters for making these such interesting, informative, but most of all, measured threads to read.

I have just been catching up with the day's posts and wanted to hark back to a comment by (I think) Lurking Husband who said: In a country where tax-efficient trust funds for Tarquin and Jocasta are positively encouraged, while a tax-break for Jane and Wayne are reviled, it seems a crafty workaround.

Actually, trusts have been under attack by all recent Governments who tend to view them as nothing more than tax avoidance vehicles, which are coincidentally quite an easy target for punitive tax rates. In contrast, efforts have been made by the same Gubmints to raise the personal allowance, in a way that benefits all taxpayers, and brings a fair few pensioners, and to a lesser extent the low waged out of income tax altogether.

I am no fan of this Gubmint or any, but do feel it's fair to correct the misapprehension.

Arborea · 29/06/2016 20:24

HPFA I totally agree May has played her cards well, but she is fiercely anti- Human Rights Act and anti- ECHR and I am concerned that we have already ditched a lot of stuff that makes this country semihumane, without creating an even greater Horlicks by jettisoning our civil liberties too.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 29/06/2016 20:30

(JC) has already said that if he wins a leadership contest, he will "change the rules" and prevent MPs who have voted against him from standing in the next General Election

Somebody please tell me this isn't true? Please??? Confused

Or if it is, forget everything I said re only wondering about his mental health ...

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