Have Boris and Jeremy been stabbed in the back? Please can we have some leaders?

[RedToothBrush]

And another thread about antics of President Boris and Comrade Jeremy and all their friends.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

Can we laugh or cry yet?

Are you still sane?

Will this insanity ever end?

You're quite right Bourdic, I thought she was a junior minister but turned that down so she could vote against the party line when she thought she should. I've got no one.

Could we all club together and get Arron Banks some counselling to help with the inferiority complex?

How the fuck do we deal with it? He's right, it can't be facts, facts, facts.... It has to be emotional and honest to challenge to the underlying problems.
A united front...
.... where is this going to come from?

Hmm

Oh The Progressive Alliance
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/green-party-calls-labour-lib-dems-and-plaid-cymru-form-progressive

Thoughts?

sorry ,place marking ,can't keep up !

Great thread. I'm learning a lot. Thanks everyone.

A Progressive Alliance sounds good to me. Not sure how it would work with FPTP, but at this stage anything is worth a try.

I could see Labour turning its nose up at it though. Especially Corbyn's version of Labour.

shameless placemarking as these threads have been an absolute education - enormous thanks to all the contributors

The progressive alliance was mentioned approvingly on Monday in the telegraph of all places!

It sounds like s good idea to me.

Has anyone seen this? The Guardian think they know what immigration policy Johnson and May will be advocating for
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/working-eu-uk-free-movement-permit-easy-entry-migrants-jobs-automatic-rights-

The idea is to only give visas to EU workers who come with a job offer (currently about 70% of EU immigrants). The remaining 30% could still come for a few months while they look for a job, but would have to go back if they can't find one.

Three obvious problems, in my view:

1. the Australian system it imitates aims to allow employers to bring as many low-skilled workers as they want to - ie it would do nothing to alleviate the concerns of the working class, although they would probably realise that too late
2. at the very best it would only reduce EU immigration by 30%, probably by much less than that
3. that's the policy they'd be negotiating for, not the one they could actually get... no way they'll get full access to the Single Market with that, so something will have to give

Thoughts?

Arron Banks merely existing right now is making me feel worse about this whole sorry situation.

A Progressive Alliance sounds good to me. Not sure how it would work with FPTP, but at this stage anything is worth a try.

I could see Labour turning its nose up at it though. Especially Corbyn's version of Labour.

Ideas of how it could work: perhaps not trying to split the vote by standing candidates against each other in certain seats. Sharing resources (man power). Finding common goals and interests.

It depends on how smart Labour are at the moment. They CAN NOT win a general election at the moment. It just is not possible. They could use this as breathing space to reconnect with their grass roots and build from that (which is frankly what they need to do).

I think there is a lot in it, but also a lot of problems.

Right now though I do think that there is a public mood across political boundaries where people want unity, they want consensus and frankly they just want less of the bullshit we've had for the last 4 months.

"WE THE PEOPLE ARE FUCKED OFF"
we need to work on some catchphrases and some passionate stuff of our own don't we? And humour. Definitely some humour in order. Humour goes viral just as much as controversy

This is behind the Times paywall. Can anyone cut and paste it.

The anger is so great we must have a new vote by David Aaronovitch

A right wing Coup d'état.

And cleverly done

If done well it could be really well received. It would be a breath of fresh collaborative positive air after all the infighting and nastiness.

It depends on how smart Labour are at the moment.

Dead in the water then.

Dead in the water then.

Lurking, are we talking from the grassroots Labour Party or the PLP?
There seems to be a difference.

Progressive alliance sounds great to me.

Back to Johnson shafting:

May is set to declare tomorrow for the leadership. She is intending to set up a Brexit department.

I think that role would be just PERFECT for Johnson.

I thought there was a Brexit department? What happened to Letwin?

I think Letwin is doing something but the treasury select committee said he was not fit for the job.... he's still doing it mind.

Until the Brexiteers take responsibility.

That is so interesting Plato. It makes much more sense to me now.

Do you think JC will be able to hold on till then?

I think there is a massive problem with the idea that the labour "grassroots" are the people who joined the party, and not the people who vote for it.

The MPs that Corbyn is sneering at were elected by millions of working people across the UK

There is something profoundly undemocratic and worryingly authoritarian about ignoring such an overwhelming message by those representatives.

Or are we now in a post-representative democracy world?

Also, Chilcott FFS?

The country is totally fucked with no effective PM or opposition, on the verge of giving up our competitive advantage in the world for no clear return, and we are focusing on a report about something that happened more than a decade ago?

I thought NI was bad for focusing on the past while your present snd future go up in smoke.

Progressive Alliance makes me groan a bit. Stuff like this never seems to last very long before the honeymoon ends, or ends up becoming subsumed into larger parties so you feel that a lot of bother could have been saved by individuals just jumping ship. That said, some of these players and potential players seem a bit more mature than the norm. Not to be controversial, but I have wondered if the key to a more progressive politics might lie with the increase in strong, outspoken yet cooperative female politicians.

Ideas of how it could work: perhaps not trying to split the vote by standing candidates against each other in certain seats.

I like this. This happened in effect at the last election, thanks to Labour and Green voters who pledged vote swapping via a website in areas where one or other could not win.

Can't keep up with you guys but would just like to add - David Cameron saying Corbyn should go as Government needs an effective opposition reminded me of several articles I read in the German press before the vote saying 'don't go Britain, we need a critical friend inside the EU.'

Use of the term "Progressive" bothers me. I am uncomfortable with understanding what it actually means and what it is used to justify. An example of things which make me uncomfortable would be Mandelson and his intense relaxation with people getting stinking rich at the expense of the society they exploit. A lot of the post Brexit Remain angst centres on the economy as it affects the chattering classes. I have seen many comments along the lines of "my poor cleaner who I may no longer choose to afford in a climate of economic uncertainty".
The PLP rush to jettison JC to protect "liberal progressive" values in the face of "socialism" is more of this.

Anyway an interesting bbc article on the mercurial definition of "progressive" which in my admittedly biased view questions the worthiness of the political description.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11785483

I agree Red about women, at least they won't have gone to Eton for a change.