Can anyone explain why the government and others are so desperate for us to stay?

[TwentyOneGuns]

I'm the first to admit that my knowledge of politics and economics is not great but it seems to me there must be more to it than we are being told. If they are getting so scared of a Leave vote that they have to threaten us with Emergency budgets etc what are they really worrying about? I just can't believe they have only the interests of the country at heart. What do they get out of it if we vote Remain?

It is very simple, voting to leave the EU will put our own political class back in charge of our country and they are accountable to us. The EU is not accountable to us, we can't elect the Commission and we can't vote them out. We don't vote for Donald Tusk, the EU President.

All of Hilary Benn's arguments about trade and workers' rights being lost are an argument that our political class would be powerless if we didn't go along with the EU Project and that diminishes our democracy.

We are the 5th largest economy in the world, we are not powerless and an accountable political class can make laws and changes that benefit the people.

Do the people know what is being discussed behind closed doors over TTIP by unelected, unaccountabble offiicials?

The people can vote out an accountable political class if they disagree with any TTIP deals they may do and the people can change the direction of the country if they disagree with how it is being run in their name, but there is nothing they can do about changing the EU.

No one likes the elite, no one likes business people, politicians etc. But why the total disdain for experts? I don't get that.

Disclosure: I work in an 'expert' type job. Nothing to do with the EU though. I'll still be in a job if we leave.

As an expert, your job is to get to the facts. My clients and the users of my advice expect accurate information, even if it's not what they want to hear. If I tell them some bullshit based on my personal opinion, I'll lose their trust and they won't ask my advice again. I have to show data, evidence, hard reasoning.

Right now, the vast majority of Britain's experts are saying clearly that staying in serves our interest better than leaving. Lots of reasons, based on their detailed knowledge of about a million different issues that we never get to hear much about. Primarily they are seeing the impact on jobs. I can see in my own sector (tech) that jobs would be lost through Brexit, and new ones wouldn't be created.

These experts - who include the Bank of England, which has a statutory duty to protect the UK economy on behalf of British citizens - are there to help us. They're on our side. And yet we'd rather trust Boris Johnson (who was pro-Remain before February), Michael Gove and Nigel Farage?

'Because obviously if we leave the EU then we are going to have a permanent Labour Government run by the likes of Tony Benn or Bob Crow.'

If that is what the British people want, then yes. The key thing is we will have a government chosen by the British people and accountable to the British people and which can be voted out by the British people if they don't like what they are doing.

Sacrificing democracy under the false hope that the EU is a social Europe when it has inflicted the worst austerity on Southern Europe since the 1930s and when its policies have led to the rise of extreme right wing nationalism in Europe that we haven't seen since the 1930s, is a mistake because the unaccountable EU leaders are taking Europe in the wrong direction and the people are not allowed to change its direction. There is no brake to the banker driven austerity followed by the EU. The people have no say. It is undemocratic and is the bankers' and capitalists' dream.

'But why the total disdain for experts? I don't get that. '

Because people don't trust them because they doubt their independence. They have seen the experts get it wrong over the Euro and many other issues, they have witnessed the austerity delivered by the political class on the advice of the experts, and they have lost faith in the policies that are being advocated and followed.

That is why the students marched against the student fees which the experts say are necessary to fund education.

'But why the total disdain for experts? I don't get that. '

The BBC keep trying to use the argument on Newsnight etc

"but you would trsut a brain surgeon?" etc

But that is different. Of course we trust brain surgeons and doctors and nurses because we don't think they have anything to gain, we don't think they are bought and paid for.

But many of us don't trust the BBC or the economists because we know that they receive government funding and are often not independent.

It is all about independence. We trust people who are independent which is what this referendum is all about. We want an independent country because we can then trust and hold to account the political class more than if they are inelected, unaccountable Eurocrats who we think are influenced by business and bankers.

Which experts say student fees Claig? You're thinking of politicians, not experts. Politicians quoting statistics taken out of context. Politicians commissioning their own 'research' to sock puppet their opinions.

This is the trouble, tarring everyone with the same brush and as a result ignoring important information.

If the Bank of England and IMF are telling us the economy will tank, we should listen. They have literally no vested interest in calling it wrong.

The bloody Bank of England is independent of government, businesses, and the EU! It's there to protect our economy, our jobs and wages.

And right now those guys are working overtime to prepare for all manner of horrors on Friday, including a run on the pound.

The overwhelming majority of experts in almost every field, whose reputation depends on getting things right, have looked at the evidence and said Britain's interests are best served by staying in. They have in most cases fully referenced their judgement, so those who want to can see for themselves.

It's lunacy, frankly, to suggest every single one is simply in hock to EU funding, or been forced to support Remain by shadowy interests.

It's also bizarre to reject all of this analysis by dismissing all expert opinion in favour of some what-I-reckon. Yet that is what very many people are doing.

'You're thinking of politicians, not experts'

Yes but we all know that Cameron isn't the sharpest pencil in the box and gets his advice from the teenage spinners who surround him. He takes advice from people cleverer than him, the "experts", the think tanks etc who create policy and feed the lines to him.

'Politicians commissioning their own 'research' to sock puppet their opinions.
'
No it is teh other wat around. The politicians are the puppets, they get the policies fed to them, just as the EU ones do. The lobbyists and the City get their way and the politicians do what they want in most situations.

'If the Bank of England and IMF are telling us the economy will tank, we should listen. They have literally no vested interest in calling it wrong.'

I haven't followed it in deatil because I don't believe the "experts" and therefore tune out becuse I think I am being spun. But we now find out that Mark Carney, head of teh Bank of England, was a Goldman Sachs employee for ten years, just like so many of the bankers and technocrats across Europe. One of the Remain MPs criticised Mark Carney's intervention. I can't remember who it was because I tuned out because I believe we are being spun anyway, so it is pointless following all the details of the spin.

I see, so you haven't actually read any of what the experts say. Because you'd already 'tuned them out'.

Good to know.

The man who effectively made Cameron and propelled him to the position of leader of the Conservatives and enabled him to defeat David Davies in the leadership election is a fellow Oxford PPE, the man widely known as "Cameron's Brain", Steve Hilton.

Cameron gets his ideas from people a lot cleverer than him. We saw how Cameron couldn't "negotiate" his way out of a paper bag with his EU partners and how the Latvians ran rings around him.

Steve Hilton, "Cameron's Brain", the guru responsible for teh creation of Cameron and the man who told him it was about time he hugged a husky, has come out for Brexit in order to give back democratic control of their politicians to the people.

Without "Cameron's Brain", Cameron is wandering around looking forlorn, scrabbling for advice from the nearest teenage whizzkid he can find who are nothing compared to "Cameron's Brain".

I see. So all clever people are bad and wrong. Very good, carry on.

Some people say that Cameron is clueless and that he has lost the plot and is engaged in scaremongering of the highest order. If it all seems senseless, we now know why. "Cameron's Brain" has abandoned him, he has come out for Brexit.

"Why Cameron's Former Adviser Is Backing Brexit

Steve Hilton says there too much centralisation, particularly in the EU, where power lies with "the elite and the insiders".

news.sky.com/story/1701524/why-camerons-former-adviser-is-backing-brexit

'So all clever people are bad and wrong'

Absolutely not. "Cameron's Brain" is spot on and he has come out for Brexit.

I don't include Cameron in "very clever people" unfortunately.

Oh I see! One clever person backs Brexit so it must be right, so long as you ignore the 80% of other clever people who back Remain.

"But we now find out that Mark Carney, head of teh Bank of England, was a Goldman Sachs employee for ten years"

Erm, this was never a secret? And hardly disqualifies him from being a highly intelligent and qualified public servant who is whose aim is to manage the UK economy effectively.

"I haven't followed it in deatil because I don't believe the "experts" and therefore tune out because I think I am being spun"

You have clearly made you mind up that pretty much anyone qualified to comment on economic issues is out to exploit the average UK citizen and are therefore refusing to listen to anything they have to say. I could tell you (as an academic economist) that you are absolutely wrong about the agenda and motivation of the vast majority economists. I could argue that, at least on the face of it, the agenda of the leading Remain activists is much more out of line with yours than the experts you dismiss so readily. But you obviously wouldn't take any notice.

There isn't much point debating with someone who has such a closed mind.

Brexiters remind me of antivaxxers - and this thread of all the old vax threads from Mumsnet years ago

The same paranoia about any organisations or businesses
Lack of evidence and denial of reality
Positioning those who oppose them as brainwashed or "sheeple"
The same cultish worship of their white male partisan leaders as 'Rebels' and 'anti authoritarian'
Convinced of their rightness and that time will prove they are correct
Weird alliance of right and left wingers
Anecdote and emotions above reason

*I see some of you have really bought the Project Fear.

Sad to think that as a nation we allow ourselves to be whipped like a Tory MP - by a Tory Chancellor.*

I thought this comment really reflected that heady mix of condescension and passive aggressiveness... Until I saw the 10 year old comment.

I'm remain, I've been remain since 18 years old - no-one is brainwashing me. My decision is based on four decades of life experience and learning.

I am explaining why people, not just me, have lost trust in the "experts". We don't trsut them, we don't trust Goldman Sachs, we don't think they are independent.

Brexit is leading in the polls. The people don't trust the "experts" Cameron gets to help him argue his case.

The people don't fall for Evan Davis on BBC Newsnight saying in a scripted line "but you trust brain surgeons?"

Yes, we trust brain surgeons. We don't trust Goldman Sachs and George Osborne and Cameron, particularly now that his "Brain" has gone AWOL and is backing Brexit. That is the reality of it.

Have to now the lawn before it rains. Back later.

I was ever so slightly confused however Springing has really helped. So thank you! I also feel if we leave there will be a domino effect.

I'd much rather our country wasn't run by the EU and I'm frustrated at how many are willing to stay given that we have a great opportunity to change our county for the better.

What I can't get my heard around is many people I know think those voting leave are foolish have no understanding of politics out come the standard we shall end up in a recession, it's the poor who will pay and so on but when I ask them can they explain to me how the EU is set up and works they can't

Because they understand the issues?

They understand the issues but aren't prepared to explain them Bertrand? That's a bit odd.

How does the EU work Enthusiasm?

Because they understand the issues?

Or maybe they do but have come to different conclusions to you.

So you trust brain surgeons. How about Dr Sarah Wollaston, Tory MP for Totnes, who was a GP before being elected in 2010. She originally backed leave, but changed her mind and switched to Remain having looked at the arguments in more detail.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Wollaston