so 88% of top economists think that the UK will suffer financially for the next 5 years; 72% think the economy will suffer for the next 10-20 if we leave EU!

[Palehorse]

So we have the the IMF, the IFS, and now a big majority of top economists across academia, and the public and private sectors telling us that if we brexit, our economy will struggle for the next 20 years.

Surely this is the most important issue if the referendum. As a relativity low income family, I dread the future for my kids if we are forced to leave.

Sorry, "informed decision".

'"Think with your head. Vote with your heart"

On that basis I'll vote to co-operate and work with the countries on my doorstep. To be part of a team. '

rogueantimatter, there is nothing to stop us cooperating and working as a team just as we do in NATO or as we do with the United States, but we don't need to follow the lie of the political servant class who want us to handover our sovereignty to an unelected body of bureaucrats.

'In my heart this idea of proud Brits taking back control etc is embarrassing and depressing. It feels like the epitome of insularity and parochialism.'

It is called democracy, letting the Britsh people's view be sovreign rather than the political servant class of elotist appointees and servants.

We'd be competing.

'The Leave campaign is funded by billionaires'

The UKIP billionaire Arron Banks is not part of the establishment. He won't be invited to tea and crumpets at Ten Downing Street anytime soon because he opposes the establishment's servant, Cameron.

'We'd be competing.'

No we wouldn't, we would be agreeing and cooperating where it makes sense and closing our borders to open door immigration where it doesn't make sense for the sake of security and our country's economic needs. We the people would be sovereign rather than this servant class of politicians who are "all in it together" and on the gravy train.

Our sovereign is un-elected.

Our politicians are not representative of the population - people from ethnic minorities, disabled people and women are hugely under-represented.

The house of lords is unelected.

Multi-national corporations are apparently accountable to no-one except their shareholders.

To think we'd benefit from leaving and therefore appearing to have more say in our own affairs is deluded imo.

'And it's not like "the people" is overwhelmingly on the Leave side either, at best the opinion is 50-50.'

Let's wait and see on June 24th. The Establishment is in overdrive pretending that the people support Cameron and the team, but I think the polls can't be relied on just as they couldn't during the general election.

They are spinning like crazy and they are even wheeling out Blair to help them convince the people.

"even wheeling out Blair to help them convince people" - that's legitimate. He's a former pm and he works in an international capacity so he's an obvious person to 'wheel out'. You're clutching at straws there.

'To think we'd benefit from leaving and therefore appearing to have more say in our own affairs is deluded imo.'

After the people win the referendum, our entire unrepresentative political system will change because the people will have seen the servants for who they are and they will not represent the people and will have been shown to represent the establishment. The aftermath will be the birth of real democracy as stooges are voted out, just as Labour party members voted against their stooges and put Corbyn in charge.

As the Daily Telegraph journalist, Tim Stanley, said, this is "the Establishment versus the people" and after the people win, the Establishment will have to be reformed and made more democratic in order to represent the people and not the cosy elite.

'he's an obvious person to 'wheel out''

Absolutely, Blair is an "obvious" person they need to wheel out. But most of the people, unlike the Establishment, dislike Blair, so it is obvious that he can't help, just as Yiannis Varoufakis said this morning on the Andrew Marr Show, Blair is the last person anyone wants on their side.

On the Remain side, I don't see anyone explaining the TTIP and how US companies can invest here and take us to a rather one-sided court if they don't like how they're treated.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-we-cant-protect-ourselves-from-ttip-by-leaving-europe-heres-why-a6853876.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/18/no-ttip-is-not-a-good-reason-for-britain-to-leave-the-european-u/

leftfootforward.org/2016/05/brexit-would-weaken-the-campaign-against-toxic-trade-deals-like-ttip/

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/25/ttip-vote-brexit-barack-obama-leave-eu-trade-deal

Bottomline:

The people who like TTIP are the British Tories who have been its most vocal supporters in the EU, especially the Brexit Tories, even more especially Boris Johnson who is on record as saying (repeatedly and emphatically) how silly the EU is being for not jumping at the opportunity. They're really annoyed that these annoying French and German governments keep stalling the deal.

rogueantimatter, once we've left the EU and are able to concentrate on this country's own affairs, we campaign for Lords reform, vote in different MPs and a new government, petition and lobby for accountability for multinational corporations who are heavily supported by the EU, and support alternatives to the monarchy.

"TTIP: Ukip lead dramatic EU revolt against trade deal that could force NHS privatisation"

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ttip-ukip-lead-dramatic-eu-5858981

There are an awful lot of Establishment stooges on the Remain side who are for TTIP, including Labour ones, and there are more people on the Leave side who are against TTIP.

But the whole point of leaving is for the British people to regain their sovereignty and to be able to put pressure on our servant political class rather than lobbying some unidentified bureaucrats in Brussels.

I don't need to read more propaganda! TTIP has not been adequately covered on television or the radio. It's all about immigration. And, I hasten to add, that debate has been wholly one sided. Nothing about those of us who use our mutually recognised qualifications to provide services on a temporary or permanent basis in other EU countries, Norway and Switzerland.

People forget that immigration between EU countries is not unbridled. Actually freedom of movement applies only to workers. It's the government's fault it doesn't have a system for registering people to check this. In Germany you have to pitch up to the town hall with your employment contract.

floppityflop you are wrong, free movement does not just apply to workers it applies to all EU citizens (and non EU citizens married to an EU citizen) so for example in the immigration stats this week 77,000 came from the EU to the UK with no job. The problem with mutually recognising qualifications is that the UK has the best universities etc in Europe & many other nation's qualifications are not of the same standard of the UK

Well that's ironic, given Nigel Farage's dubious past positions regarding the privatisation of the NHS...

In any case UKIP wouldn't be in charge of the UK after Brexit (one can only hope), the Tories would be. The same people who have pushed the worst aspects of TTIP at the EU.

(Because it's not as simple as just walking out and refusing to debate, as UKIP did. TTIP is not an existing thing, it's being debated and amended, there may yet be positive things to come out of it, if the EU can leverage its position as the first economy in the world to bend US demands)

Boris Johnson on TTIP:

There is absolutely nothing not to like about the TTIP.

If the EU can’t pull [TTIP] off, we in Britain should offer to go first and do it ourselves

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html

In my heart this idea of proud Brits taking back control etc is embarrassing and depressing. It feels like the epitome of insularity and parochialism.

Are all countries, then, that aren't part of a larger block insular and parochial (and nationalist)?

I don't need to read more propaganda! TTIP has not been adequately covered on television or the radio.

hey, I included a Torygraph link in there among all my left-wing stuff!

seriously though, I'm not sure what you're looking for? if it's a serious in-depth look at all the implications of TTIP, you can find it, but it's not going to be in the mainstream media, whether print or television/radio. Because it's all really complex and boring, and sadly people just aren't that interested in the detail.

Why will coming out of Europe mean that all of a sudden we can concentrate on overhauling the current system. Our democratic system is nowt to do with the EU. Why haven't we been doing this already?

It is still just free movement of workers actually, but you are right that it also applies to their dependants.

'Why will coming out of Europe mean that all of a sudden we can concentrate on overhauling the current system. Our democratic system is nowt to do with the EU. Why haven't we been doing this already?'

Because our Establishment stooges have got away with it for too long and the resentment of the people was slow to rise. But the fact that the 100-1 outsider Corbyn defeated the Labour Oxbridge Establishment candidates for the leadership shows that the people have had enough.

After the people defeat the establishment in this referendum, the establishment, Cameron et al, will have lost all credibility as they argued against us leaving and predicted dire consequences. They won't have a leg to stand on, their credibility and advice and pontifications will be shot to pieces. As Ken Clarke said, Cameron probably won't last in office for thirty seconds. But it won't just be Cameron, it will all the other stooges who stood shoulder to shoulder with him and his dire warnings, who will be discredited in the public eye.

The Establishment only govern by consent, and the people will have voted against their best dire advice, so the Establishment will have to reform very quickly in order to maintain public confidence in their servants.

That is why the entire political system will need to be reformed and realigned. The shockwaves from a Brexit will shatter the EU itself, but will alos transform our system of governance by the servants of the establishment.

A better, more democratic, sovereign future for the British people will have to emerge from the establishment rubble.

Sorry, you are right, I am getting mixed up with the right to job-seeking benefits.

And you don't need to worry about "negotiations" with the EU that our political class of servants keep banging on about and whether our sovereign goverenment will be able to get a good deal because our class of servants will be irrelevant as the EU collapses.

"Brussels fears Brexit will be ‘THE END’ of EU due to devastating domino effect

EUROPEAN leaders are scrambling to avoid a total collapse of the EU amid fears Brexit will inspire other countries to quit the union."

www.express.co.uk/news/world/674402/brussels-fear-brexit-domino-effect-eu-end

As Varoufakis said on the Andrew Marr Show today, the EU will desperately try to save itself by becoming more authoritarian than they already are and trying to force through greater union on its remaining members. But the reality is that the people of Europe will not accept that and they will topple their own servant classes.

Once the British people defeat our servant class of politicians, all of Europe will change and our entire servant governing class will have to change too.

But the EU citizen rights are only for first three months and contingent thereafteron being a worker or dependant or, otherwise, have sufficient economic resources. So, in effect, you should be a worker or have independent means. But the definition of worker is v. broad and includes genuine job seekers.